tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post112991943850447675..comments2024-03-27T20:29:51.603+00:00Comments on Seeking a Little Truth: CyberKittenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130441885177265212005-10-27T20:38:00.000+01:002005-10-27T20:38:00.000+01:00Sadie Lou said: The people who were dealt a rotten...Sadie Lou said: The people who were dealt a rotten hand should be able to have the HOPE of something better--the hope that this is not all there is--the hope that they are loved, despite the hate they have endured their entire life.<BR/><BR/>Personally I would rather that we do something about their situation in this life rather than have them rely on a hope for a better deal in the next one.<BR/><BR/>I am also not denying these people hope. I am merely stating my belief that I do not consider the idea of an afterlife to be a credible one. If people want to believe such things I am happy that they go on believing it.<BR/><BR/>In a lot of ways I am very lucky. I was born into a comparatively rich and safe country. That is not to say that everything has gone my way in my life (nor that it can't get a whole lot worse). However, you'll have to come up with some pretty fancy arguments or evidence to convince me that there is more to existence that this 'Earthly realm'.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130441160473533242005-10-27T20:26:00.000+01:002005-10-27T20:26:00.000+01:00Q:You can afford to be complacent about it, becaus...Q:<I>You can afford to be complacent about it, because you were lucky enough to be born into good circumstances.</I><BR/>Cyberkitten: This is the crux of the issue. Your stance on a godless universe says nothing about the nature of the beast. What do you have to say about people less fortunate than you?<BR/>Why are they given the hand they were dealt and you are so fortunate as to experience this one shot deal with good circumstances?<BR/>The people who were dealt a rotten hand should be able to have the HOPE of something better--the hope that this is not all there is--the hope that they are loved, despite the hate they have endured their entire life.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130440167909295232005-10-27T20:09:00.000+01:002005-10-27T20:09:00.000+01:00Q - Thanks for that....Q said: But Cyberkitten, ho...Q - Thanks for that....<BR/><BR/>Q said: But Cyberkitten, how can you possibly know that the mind does not survive the death of the body?<BR/><BR/>I don't know - and none of us will know until after we're dead (or not I'm I'm right). But I stongly suspect/believe it to be the case. I have certainly seen no evidence or argument that has convinced me to change my mind.<BR/><BR/>Q also said: I am firmly convinced that hope is not available to an atheist like yourself.<BR/><BR/>You're going to have to explain this one to me. Hope of what?<BR/><BR/>Q also said: There are millions of suffering people in the world; some of them are your neighbours. And I'm afraid your position is rather callous toward them.<BR/><BR/>Now I'm really confused. Why is my personal belief in the lack of any kind of afterlife in any way 'callous' to millions of people I don't know & will never meet?<BR/><BR/>Q also said: But a godless universe is an absurd and cruel universe.<BR/><BR/>No it isn't. A Godless Universe is a naturally occuring phenomena. It is neither absurd nor cruel. Though it is certainly indifferent. <BR/><BR/>In what way would you consider such a Universe absurd?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130438675934339002005-10-27T19:44:00.000+01:002005-10-27T19:44:00.000+01:00But Cyberkitten, how can you possibly know that th...But Cyberkitten, how can you possibly <I>know</I> that the mind does not survive the death of the body?<BR/><BR/>You've already acknowledged that the mind only partly corresponds with the brain. If the mind is non-material, even in part, why <I>must</I> it die when the body dies? You're forming a conclusion without the data necessary to support it.<BR/><BR/>And Sadie Lou is right to challenge you at the point that she does. I am firmly convinced that <I>hope</I> is not available to an atheist like yourself. You can afford to be complacent about it, because you were lucky enough to be born into good circumstances. You even think it's nobel to deny life after death, that you've taken the harder path. But in fact it's easy for you to take that stance.<BR/><BR/>There are millions of suffering people in the world; some of them are your neighbours. And I'm afraid your position is rather callous toward them.<BR/><BR/>Tread carefully here. The people that Sadie Lou is describing — some of them are people she knows personally, I'm willing to bet.<BR/><BR/>Not that wishing makes it so. I know, fervently hoping there's a better life after this one doesn't constitute evidence that there is. But a godless universe is an absurd and cruel universe. I hope you understand the force of Sadie Lou's point.<BR/>Qstchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018824090441668781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130435999719275302005-10-27T18:59:00.000+01:002005-10-27T18:59:00.000+01:00..and that's one of the reasons many people believ.....and that's one of the reasons many people believe that there is more to life than this 'one shot deal'.<BR/><BR/>I however do not.<BR/><BR/>(makes note to Blog on the 'Meaning of Life')<BR/><BR/>These future Blogs are certainly mounting up aren't they....CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130433564323626392005-10-27T18:19:00.000+01:002005-10-27T18:19:00.000+01:00As far as I am concerned (and am aware) nothing of...<I>As far as I am concerned (and am aware) nothing of what makes us.. us.. survives death. This (life) is a one shot deal.</I><BR/><BR/>That sucks for babies that were aborted.<BR/>That sucks for children that were raped and murdered.<BR/>That sucks for women who were abused in their marriage for most of their lives.<BR/>That sucks for slaves.<BR/>If this is all there is, that sucks for like 90% of the population.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130433110069008952005-10-27T18:11:00.000+01:002005-10-27T18:11:00.000+01:00Q said: The $64,000 question is, does the mind sur...Q said: The $64,000 question is, does the mind survive the death of the body, or at least have the potential to do so? If so, then human beings have what I mean when I speak of a "soul". The soul is the non-material part of human beings.<BR/><BR/>No. The Mind dies when we do. After all its just basically caused by electrical activity in the brain (as far as I understand it). So, when the brain dies, the mind dies with it. End of story - Good Night Vienna.<BR/><BR/>As far as I am concerned (and am aware) nothing of what makes us.. us.. survives death. This (life) is a one shot deal.CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130430800925922302005-10-27T17:33:00.000+01:002005-10-27T17:33:00.000+01:00"But God isn't going to damn us for having the wro..."But God isn't going to damn us for having the wrong beliefs or for committing run-of-the-mill sins. To be rejected by God, you would have to choose to live a life devoted to evil. That's the way I see it."<BR/><BR/>That's not the way I see it. If you reject God--you're going to hell. Nobody comes close to earning their way into His good graces by NOT devoting their life to evil. <BR/>You get into His good graces through Jesus Christ and him crucified--no merit of mine is going to save me. Run of the mill sins or no.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130430615492227152005-10-27T17:30:00.000+01:002005-10-27T17:30:00.000+01:00• sadie lee:I'm enjoying your contribution to this...<I>• sadie lee:<BR/>I'm enjoying your contribution to this dialogue. I know you won't appreciate the liberal theology of my last remark but still, I'm in your corner. You go, girl, give it to Cyberkitten right between the eyes!<BR/>Q</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks Q. Your comments blow my mind. I'm thouroughly enjoying this and I think we've covered some huge subjects here. It's nice to know that there are people who can talk about these issues without resorting to name calling and sarcasm--which I run into often.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130420448763742162005-10-27T14:40:00.000+01:002005-10-27T14:40:00.000+01:00I can certainly show you brain activity which appe...<I>I can certainly show you brain activity which appears to correspond to the mind operating.</I><BR/><BR/>— indirect evidence that the mind exists.<BR/><BR/><I>But where can we do that with the Soul?</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps what you mean by "mind" is not far removed from what I mean by "soul". But "soul" is a broader term which also encompasses the emotions. As with the mind, we can map the electrical activity of emotions in the brain.<BR/><BR/>Two additional comments. First, remember that I was responding (along with Sadie Lou and craziequeen) to <I>your</I> questions. So you tell me:<BR/><BR/>What is the mind? What is it made of? Why hasn't it been discovered in the last X years by Science? Where is it (beyond your vague explanation that it is in some way associated with the brain)?<BR/><BR/>The $64,000 question is, <I>does the mind survive the death of the body</I>, or at least have the potential to do so? If so, then human beings have what I mean when I speak of a "soul". The soul is the non-material part of human beings.<BR/><BR/>In Hebrew thought, by the way, the personality was deemed to include both the body and the soul (just as you have suggested that the mind is inseparable from the body). Hence first century Jews emphasized a resurrection of the body, which would take place “at the end of the age”. This way of looking at things was passed on to Judaism’s daughter faith, Christianity.<BR/><BR/>The Greeks didn't see it that way. They believed the body was in opposition to the soul, dragging it down. They eagerly anticipated the liberation of the soul from the body.<BR/><BR/>Whether the Greeks were right, or the Hebrews, you must admit: I've just opened up the possibility that there is such a thing as the soul. We might further theorize that the soul has the capacity to survive the death of the body.<BR/>Qstchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018824090441668781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130351839583075692005-10-26T19:37:00.000+01:002005-10-26T19:37:00.000+01:00Q said regarding Sadie Lou: I'm enjoying your cont...Q said regarding Sadie Lou: I'm enjoying your contribution to this dialogue. I know you won't appreciate the liberal theology of my last remark but still, I'm in your corner. You go, girl, give it to Cyberkitten right between the eyes!<BR/><BR/>(Howls with laughter) I'm enjoying this too...<BR/><BR/>Q also said: Show me your mind on an x-ray. Not your brain — your mind. Or show it to me on an EEG or whatever.<BR/><BR/>That's a good point. The mind is rather difficult to 'pin down' as it where. There is indeed at least one school of thought (no pun intended) that puts forward the idea that minds are in fact illusions. We only 'think' that we have them... (grin)<BR/><BR/>(Makes note to Blog about 'minds' at some point)..<BR/><BR/>However, uncertainty about the existence of the mind (or how it works etc) doesn't in any way prove (or even indicate) the Souls exist. I can certainly show you brain activity which appears to correspond to the mind operating. I can chose to think of something and a particular area of the brain will be activated. If a part of the brain is stimulated the 'owner' will experience a memory or sensation (like the smell of onions) so there does seem to be some evidence that the brain and the mind are (in someway) linked...<BR/><BR/>But where can we do that with the Soul? Even theoretically... Just how does the Soul function... Or is it just one more mystery that we're not supposed to think about too much?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130350862675094922005-10-26T19:21:00.000+01:002005-10-26T19:21:00.000+01:00• Cyberkitten:Show me your mind on an x-ray. Not ...• Cyberkitten:<BR/><BR/>Show me your mind on an x-ray. Not your brain — your mind. Or show it to me on an EEG or whatever.<BR/><BR/>It's hardly an insignificant part of your identity, but I don't believe it exists. Prove me wrong. Show it to me.<BR/><BR/>• Mrs. Aginoth:<BR/>I didn't exactly say that we're all right in what we believe. In fact, I'm persuaded that none of us is right, if we're talking about 100% right.<BR/><BR/>But God isn't going to damn us for having the wrong beliefs or for committing run-of-the-mill sins. To be rejected by God, you would have to choose to live a life devoted to evil. That's the way I see it.<BR/><BR/>• sadie lee:<BR/>I'm enjoying your contribution to this dialogue. I know you won't appreciate the liberal theology of my last remark but still, I'm in your corner. You go, girl, give it to Cyberkitten right between the eyes!<BR/>Qstchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018824090441668781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130280173624591912005-10-25T23:42:00.000+01:002005-10-25T23:42:00.000+01:00Sadie Lou said: just because it isn't tangible lik...Sadie Lou said: just because it isn't tangible like an organ or a limb, doesn't make it any less real. <BR/><BR/>Surely if its real it must be something... Then what is it?<BR/><BR/>My 'inner voice' is me..... Where exactly does the Soul fit in?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130279767033111022005-10-25T23:36:00.000+01:002005-10-25T23:36:00.000+01:00What is it? What is it made of?Why hasn't it been ...What is it? <BR/><BR/><I>What is it made of?<BR/><BR/>Why hasn't it been discovered in the last X years by Science?<BR/><BR/>Where is it?<BR/><BR/>How does it function...?<BR/><BR/>Etc.. etc...</I><BR/><BR/>You can ask the same questions about your conscience or inner voice...just because it isn't tangible like an organ or a limb, doesn't make it any less real.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130275749862210862005-10-25T22:29:00.000+01:002005-10-25T22:29:00.000+01:00The upshot of any religious debate is either of us...The upshot of any religious debate is either of us could be right - and I'm not about to tell you you're wrong...<BR/><BR/>because you believe you are right.......and I believe I am.......<BR/><BR/>and therein lies a million years of war.........<BR/><BR/>cor - deep, ain't I??<BR/><BR/>cqcraziequeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098227916486173799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130274897668246052005-10-25T22:14:00.000+01:002005-10-25T22:14:00.000+01:00My soul is within me. It is an integral part of wh...My soul is within me. It is an integral part of who I am, what I believe and where I come from. It gains succour from god within and enables me to see the goodness without.<BR/><BR/>Like Bart Simpson, I have a soul and I would be adrift in a boat without a paddle without it.<BR/><BR/>I can't show you my soul, other than in words and actions. I can't tell you what it's made from other than me, myself and the Word of God, and scientists can't see it.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that's what is so awesome about belief - belief itself.<BR/><BR/>cqcraziequeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098227916486173799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130274637579419592005-10-25T22:10:00.000+01:002005-10-25T22:10:00.000+01:00Ah... the soul..... that's a future Blog on its o...Ah... the soul..... that's a future Blog on its own I think... but so you don't think that I'm 'copping out'.<BR/><BR/>Nope. No such thing.<BR/><BR/>For starters:<BR/><BR/>What is it? <BR/><BR/>What is it made of?<BR/><BR/>Why hasn't it been discovered in the last X years by Science?<BR/><BR/>Where is it?<BR/><BR/>How does it function...?<BR/><BR/>Etc.. etc...<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'll 'do' something about it in a week or so... I don't really intend this to be a purely 'religious' based Blog....CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130273953916450872005-10-25T21:59:00.000+01:002005-10-25T21:59:00.000+01:00[chucks spanner into works]what about the soul, ck...[chucks spanner into works]<BR/><BR/>what about the soul, ck - immortal or otherwise?<BR/><BR/>I'm interested in your thoughts on the soul.<BR/><BR/>cqcraziequeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098227916486173799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130271051675854392005-10-25T21:10:00.000+01:002005-10-25T21:10:00.000+01:00But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, bec...But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, because I don't think eternal life can be earned.<BR/><BR/>Q, that is a very powerful statement. <BR/><BR/>..and also something I can probably agree with. <BR/><BR/>For starters nothing is eternal. The Universe will either end in a Big Crunch (the opposite of the Big Bang) or it will slowly fade away to nothing as the fuel that powers the stars runs out. It's a VERY long way off yet... but it's there.<BR/><BR/>Using advances in technology we'll probably (eventually) be able to live a very long time indeed.... though I doubt if anyone or anything could live long enough to see the Universe die... but you never can quite tell.<BR/><BR/>When the Universe dies, time will die with it - maybe to be reborn in a new Big Bang billions of years in the future... and with the birth of a new Universe (if that happens) time will start again... It's quite poetic when you think about it.<BR/><BR/>Not sure about Time in a "fading out" Universe though.... Maybe that will go on 'forever'...CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130270953464681892005-10-25T21:09:00.000+01:002005-10-25T21:09:00.000+01:00But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, bec...<I>But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, because I don't think eternal life can be earned.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>and true.Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130268602846294892005-10-25T20:30:00.000+01:002005-10-25T20:30:00.000+01:00But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, bec...<I> But my motivation is not to earn eternal life, because I don't think eternal life can be earned.</I><BR/><BR/>Q, that is a very powerful statement.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130263316994446452005-10-25T19:01:00.000+01:002005-10-25T19:01:00.000+01:00I wonder if part of my 'problem' is that I never r...<I>I wonder if part of my 'problem' is that I never really got on with my parents...?</I><BR/> I don't know--could be. My parents raised us agnostic. They wanted us to do the soul searching on our own. I'm the only one of three that has professed Christianity. I see a huge void in many people. Like my mother, for instance. Her father has passed on and she has a broken relationship with her mother that has neglected her since like, she was 13.<BR/>I see her trying to fill the void through her relationships with us: her daughters. Which is fine, but all of us can't be everything she needs all the time. Ya know? If she had the Lord, she could lean on Him a great deal more and not be so disappointed in her relationships.<BR/>I see this void in many situations. Take for instance the Holocaust. How do people get through tradgedies such as that?<BR/>Look at Hurricane Katrina--how many survivors on the news said that all they could do was pray? It's because you get to a point in your life where there is no earthly person that you can turn to--that can save you from what you're going through...Sadie Louhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362158642491145353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130260596550259082005-10-25T18:16:00.000+01:002005-10-25T18:16:00.000+01:00Mrs A said: Oh yes, and the previous comment was f...Mrs A said: Oh yes, and the previous comment was from me too - I was using aginoths computer & forgot to change the settings! Aggie is half a believer himself. <BR/><BR/><BR/>That's intriguing... Which half?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130260387185739732005-10-25T18:13:00.000+01:002005-10-25T18:13:00.000+01:00Sadie Lou said: you see what I'm getting at?Kind o...Sadie Lou said: you see what I'm getting at?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Kind of... sort of.. maybe.<BR/><BR/>But, at least from my PoV... I'm afraid it doesn't make much sense. I think that I would need to be the 'inside' of your set of beliefs to fully understand what you mean. But then of course, you wouldn't need to explain it to me. On the surface we appear to be speaking the same language (Gen. Patton not withstanding) but I'm becoming aware that we're not. Either that or what you are actually saying is being clouded by assumptions and knowledge we both have and which may be radically different.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if part of my 'problem' is that I never really got on with my parents...?CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17922979.post-1130260064259770622005-10-25T18:07:00.000+01:002005-10-25T18:07:00.000+01:00Q - Well that's a much better answer to Heaven & H...Q - Well that's a much better answer to Heaven & Hell than many of the others I've heard. Plus of course it means we are right, whatever we believe (unless we believe we are due for eternal torment of course), which is a whole different belief system in itself:-)<BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to argue my side in this, just understand yours. I've nothing against religion itself, I just don't understand how it ties in with all your other rational, logical, educated & obviously liberal views of the world.<BR/><BR/>Oh yes, and the previous comment was from me too - I was using aginoths computer & forgot to change the settings! Aggie is half a believer himself.Juggling Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02711012401065605739noreply@blogger.com