Things I believe (but Cannot prove).
Given enough time we will know everything that can be known. Nothing is beyond us.
We as individuals (and as a species) are not here for any purpose. We’re animals who have evolved self-awareness. Nothing more.
The Universe is basically purposeless & uncaring. It is a great machine. Nothing more.
Life is common in the Universe and will emerge on any planet (and possibly elsewhere) if conditions allow it to.
We are not alone. We will find intelligent life in the Galaxy, or it will find us.
There is no soul. Nothing survives us after death.
There are no Gods or Demons. We will eventually outgrow such childish beliefs – though I expect that it will take some considerable time.
We have Free Will – but only up to a point.
There is no fate.
About Me
- CyberKitten
- I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.
29 comments:
1. agreed
2 agreed
3 agreed
4. agreed
oh ok I agree wholeheartedly with it all.
Although I wonder if we would recognise the intelligent life we meet.
We have free will within the bounderies of our physiology, sociology & biology:-) Those are strong bounderies though!
Mrs A said: Although I wonder if we would recognise the intelligent life we meet.
Very true. If 'they' turned out to be giant spiders we'd just squish 'em... [grin]. I'm torn between ET being something like us... or something SO different that we wouldn't have a clue what it was. I hope to find out before I die. Knowing we're not alone in the Galaxy would be so cool....
Unless they were horrible face huggers or something...
Personally I'm hoping for something like the Kzin.. but a bit less agressive.. [chuckle]
[Ponders...] Maybe I should do a favourite fictional alien post for a bit of fun.....
I agree with all this except for the fact that our world may be lifeless before life from another planet discovers us.
In fact all life on earth might have come here from another galaxy by way of a meteor/asteroid.
I think you pretty much wrote the foundations for Atheism.
What about psychic ability(mind reading)? I think the mind will be capable of this in the future if mankind survives. Maybe it does exist somewhat now.....another force against our free will.....I have an urge to call my mother all of a sudden....
BEAJ said: What about psychic ability(mind reading)?
I'm not convinced about PSI - even if I have had some 'experience' with various forms of it. I think that 'luck' might be a psychic ability and can certainly see how any of that could be a serious evolutionary advantage. If it ever did develop (if it hasn't already) then it would probably spread through the population like wildfire.
Given enough time we will know everything that can be known. I agree to a point. But everything can be understood by limitless points of view, so can we ever really truly know everything?
We are not here for any purpose. I'm with you on this one. Chance is a wonderful thing ;)
The Universe is basically purposeless & uncaring. True. But it can be beautiful too.
Life is common in the Universe... we will find intelligent life. Absolutely. It's a matter of probability. It's illogical to think that we're the only ones.
There is no soul. Nothing survives us after death. Depends on what you think of as a soul. If the human body is a huge biochemical reaction, using and giving off energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then the energy has to go somewhere. Most likely it goes to worm food.
There are no Gods or Demons. I think belief in supernatural beings is a form of paternalism. We need to feel special, we need to explain why grandma (or fluffy) died. "Just because" is simply not a good enough answer for some people.
We have Free Will – but only up to a point. I agree. Social conditioning, and physical and mental limitations limit the realm of possible choices. But within those available choices, yes, we have free will.
There is no fate. Again - the need to feel purposeful. To believe everything happens for a reason is important to some people. I'm not sure why. Chance is a good enough explanation for most things...
I like this list. Sure you can't "prove" it, but isn't that what faith is all about ;)
Laura said: But everything can be understood by limitless points of view, so can we ever really truly know everything?
[Yup. I'm not talking about endless opinion. I'm talking fact, truth & understanding.]
The Universe is basically purposeless & uncaring. True. But it can be beautiful too.
[It certainly can be. You just need to see images from Hubble to know beauty. There is also great beauty in nature right here on Earth]
Life is common in the Universe... we will find intelligent life. Absolutely. It's a matter of probability. It's illogical to think that we're the only ones.
[Indeed. Its a BIG Galaxy and an even bigger Universe. To think we're alone here is just silly.]
If the human body is a huge biochemical reaction, using and giving off energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then the energy has to go somewhere.
[There's certainly an energy component to life. However, that doesn't mean anything survives. For some sort of 'soul' to survive it needs to maintain coherence - to carry information. Energy can also disipate. Just think of heat seeping into a colder environment. After a short time its gone like it never existed.]
I like this list. Sure you can't "prove" it, but isn't that what faith is all about ;)
[Thanks. But I wouldn't classify it as 'faith'. Belief or hope maybe. I'm open to be proven wrong. Faith often denies facts. But beliefs can be overturned, hopes dashed. Faith... Well.. that's a WHOLE other issue.]
1. True
2. Probably, but not necessarily.
3. It certainly appears true.
4. Absolutely
5. See 4
6. There's only one way to find out.
7. Perhaps
8. Very much so.
9. I agree. We create our own fate.
These are all very valid beliefs and you are, of course, entitled to them. You are also free to promote them if you so desire. I hold a few beliefs and some are similar to yours. The most important thing about them is that they work for me. Additionally, I am not so close-minded to stubbornly hold on to them and in fact, they have evolved significantly over time. I have been enthralled with all this discussion in here and in sadie's blog, but it is getting a little old. I'll read more, but it is not likely I'll make anymore comments on this topic - I've said all I need to.
Still, it's been fascinating to hear all the different takes on this subject.
~Mike
Mr Althouse said: I'll read more, but it is not likely I'll make anymore comments on this topic - I've said all I need to.
I'm pretty sure that there will be another topic along any day now.
Thanks for your contributions - they've been appreciated I'm sure.
Well posted CK although I'm tempted to say it comes across as a little bleak? True but bleak!
dave said: Well posted CK although I'm tempted to say it comes across as a little bleak? True but bleak!
Which bit? [grin] I suppose that it could be seen as a bit bleak in places.... because I believe that we're basically on our own. But I also think that can be very liberating. We just need to take resonsibilty and choose to do good things - rather than either blaming God for disasters or expecting Him to help us out of the messes that *we* produce. It's all up to us. [rolls up sleeves]
So you define soul as a unified whole something that retains its attributes as a whole after death? So what about someone who defines soul as the collective energy that exists inside a person during life, which can be altered and/or tapped through various non-supernatural ways (altered states, meditation, etc), but that dissapates upon death, transforming into other things, then would that alter your perception of the existence of such a thing?
I'm glad we don't share beliefs, to be truthful. How sad!
Cyberkitten--just want you to know that I'm going to pray for you this very moment and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
*grinning*
Even though we don't agree--I'm glad we are blog friends. I am always led back here to check on you...
:)
I prayed for you without knowing what I was going to say and when I was done I wanted to tell you that I prayed that you "would experience huge amounts of joy despite your bleak worldview and that you would question where that joy comes from."
Joy seems an unlikely byproduct of a world that gives you no reason to find that joy.
Whoa I'm confused. which bit is bleak? this sounds like a very optimistic worldview to me. I know that might be because I share it, and I'm basically an optimist, but:
Our knowledge will continue to expand until we know (pretty much) everything - good
We have no purpose, just our own self awareness to live up to & decide what to do with - good, I don't like the idea of being controlled by or beholden to some unknown entity that doesn't even bother to say hello regularly
The universe is basically a machine - good, we can learn to understand it, shape it & eventually manipulate it to make our lives better.
Life is common in the universe - good, when we run across these aliens, they could/shuld bring many new ideas, concepts, philosophical debates, technology, etc to enrich our lives
We ae not alone - good, how sad would that be, to have a universe tht is so large & so empty?
There is no soul - good IMO, feel free to look through my comments on previous posts/other blogs, but I think it makes us inherently better people
There are no Gods/demons - good, we have control over our own lives, actions & morality.
We have free will - Actually I think we have free won't (we can't always will that we do do something, but we can always will that we don't) - good, we have control over our lives, actions and morality
There is no fate - good, ditto.
Whats bleak?
Those things don't look bleak to you because you view them through your eyes.
In my eyes, I see this:
knowledge is a good/scary thing. Too much of a good thing is usually bad. Take cloning for example--I see that headed in the wrong direction. Take weapons--we have "learned" our way into being able to kill each other in the worst possible ways.
We are not here for any purpose? What is the point of life for people who had a horrible exisitance from day 1? A child is born, abused, later killed all before they turned 8 years old and that is all there was for that child? SAD!
The universe is purposeless and uncaring? I agree with it being uncaring but purposeless? Hardly! The moon, the sun, all have purpose--all have meaning.
life is common and will emerge on ANY planet if conditions allow it? Well, duh.
We are not alone? I don't know.
There is no soul? I've talked about that one before...
There are no Gods, demons, fate, free will--whatever. Sounds like we are left alone here on this planet to continue on with our destructive, selfish ways until what end?
scary.
Sadie:
To me, your view is the bleak one! Re-read this portion of your last comments:
[knowledge is a good/scary thing. Too much of a good thing is usually bad. Take cloning for example--I see that headed in the wrong direction. Take weapons--we have "learned" our way into being able to kill each other in the worst possible ways.] You're worried about knowing too much? Do you think that's what Galileo was thinking while he was staring at the stars? I do agree that maybe we have too much knowledge in weaponry, but that has just gone along with the evolution of mankind. As for cloning, the reason they are doing those sorts of scientific experiments is to make life better for all of us by finding ways to beat disease and alleviate pain. What if you were in a situation where you needed a body part, organ, or whatever, but the only way to receive it was through cloning and your other option was death? I don't know too many people who would choose death, because THAT sounds pretty bleak to me.
Laura - if that's your definition of the soul... then we're talking about two different things. I think of a soul as something that we interact with (however unkowingly sometimes) and survives death either to assend/desend or pass on to another body in reincarnation. There are SO many problems with the whole idea that I just can't believe in it.
Sadie lou said: I'm glad we don't share beliefs, to be truthful. How sad!
I don't think its sad at all. Quite liberating actually. Like when you leave home for the first time & your beholden to no one. It's freedom.
Sadie said: I'm going to pray for you this very moment and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Go for it. You won't be the first or last I wager. I also doubt if I could do much to stop you!
Sadie said: I prayed that you "would experience huge amounts of joy despite your bleak worldview and that you would question where that joy comes from.
Gee, thanks. That was quick. I'll let you know if it brings anymore joy into my life. If the ex-love of my life 'Joy' does come back in to my life... I'll consider it a miracle!
Sadie also said: Joy seems an unlikely byproduct of a world that gives you no reason to find that joy.
There is actually much joy & much potential for joy in my 'bleak' outlook.
goal10der--Are you going to argue that there is no such thing as "too much of a good thing?"
I can apply this reasoning to ANYTHING that is usually good to create a bad situation:
People do it all the time, they take a good thing and get it to a place where it becomes habitual, addictive, troublesome, whatever.
Yeah, too much knowledge is a bad thing.
Am I advocating ignorance? Er, no.
cyberkitten--
"Gee thanks. That was quick." Well, I didn't say I was going to fast for 40 days or anything; I just said a little prayer for you.
Can I ask you to reason with me on the eternal consequences of your worldview? You can afford to feel this way about life because of your position. You are not a starving african child without the promise of the next meal questioning why you have been dealt such a harsh life.
I'm splitting these up a bit because I know how difficult it can be sometimes reading LONG posts adressing different peoples views... [takes deep breath]
Mrs A: Yet again I find you agreeing with me. I too was surprised by the idea of my beliefs being bleak. Certainly not from my perspective. Actually I thought they were quite 'upbeat'.. Now if you WANT bleak.... [chuckle].
Sadie said: knowledge is a good/scary thing. Too much of a good thing is usually bad.
I don't think knowledge can be either good or bad. It may be arrived at through bad methods or used for bad reasons... but the knowledge itself... I don't think that its possible to 'know to much' and I certainly don't think that there is anything 'we're not supposed to know.'
Sadie said: Take cloning for example--I see that headed in the wrong direction.
What direction is that? The production of various cloned animals is the result of testing various techniques. Some of the opportunities are silly (like cloning your dead pet) or pointless (like cloning people). Cloning of organs though... that could save and extend peoples lives.
Sadie said: we have "learned" our way into being able to kill each other in the worst possible ways.
Very true. As a species we spend far too much time, energy and money on better ways to kill people. Its such a waste and I wish it would stop.
Sadie said: What is the point of life for people who had a horrible exisitance from day 1? A child is born, abused, later killed all before they turned 8 years old and that is all there was for that child? SAD!
Yes, its VERY sad what people do to each other. However, although believing in an afterlife might make people feel better about such activities - I'd much rather they be stopped in this world rather than (possibly) compensated for in the next.
Sadie said: The universe is purposeless and uncaring? I agree with it being uncaring but purposeless? Hardly! The moon, the sun, all have purpose--all have meaning.
They only have purpose & meaning because we assign it to them. The Sun is just a huge atomic furnace burning about 93 million miles away that life takes advantage of to grow. The Sun itself has no 'purpose' it just IS.
Sadie also said: There are no Gods, demons, fate, free will--whatever. Sounds like we are left alone here on this planet to continue on with our destructive, selfish ways until what end?
scary.
Indeed. It means that we have to get our OWN act together and sort the mess out that WE have gotten ourselves into. It's quite a challenge but I think it's basically do-able.
Sadie Lou said: Can I ask you to reason with me on the eternal consequences of your worldview? You can afford to feel this way about life because of your position. You are not a starving african child without the promise of the next meal questioning why you have been dealt such a harsh life.
Yes. I'm one of the lucky ones. I live in a rich country & know where my next meal is cominfg from - PizzaHut if you must know [grin]. But I don't think that the starving African child will necessarily have a better life merely because he thinks that his suffering is all part of God's plan and when he starves or is killed by a rebel army that he's going to heaven. I think that if people spent less time worrying about and planning for an afterlife and spent more time doing something about this one then there would be a lot less people starving in Africa and much of the rest of the world... and no, I don't think that everything is the fault of God or the Church. [Just to nip that one in the bud]
Oh, and what do you mean by "eternal consequences" - just so we understand each other...
Sadie -
[I can apply this reasoning to ANYTHING that is usually good to create a bad situation] - I was merely pointing out that this is a good reason why your view is more bleak than CK's and this statement reinforces it even more.
As for having too much knowledge being too much of a good thing: it's not the amount of knowledge you have, it's how you use it that will make it a good or bad thing.
goal10der said: As for having too much knowledge being too much of a good thing: it's not the amount of knowledge you have, it's how you use it that will make it a good or bad thing.
Yup. Very true. It's the application of the knowledge that counts. Also - how much is too much.. and who decides?
indeed. It means that we have to get our OWN act together and sort the mess out that WE have gotten ourselves into. It's quite a challenge but I think it's basically do-able.
It would have been done by now. *sigh*
I just can't keep up with this. I can't. I WANT to because I have so much to say but darn it, I'd be on the computer ALL day...
I'm sorry.
Sadie said: It would have been done by now. *sigh*
I certainly think it SHOULD'VE been done by now. But we've wasted SO much time/effort on other things rather than making things better for everyone.
Sadie also said: I just can't keep up with this. I can't. I WANT to because I have so much to say but darn it, I'd be on the computer ALL day... I'm sorry.
That's OK. Take your time I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm (very) sure something similar will come up in the future. Save some/most of it till then. There's no great hurry.
I guess it is cool in a way to encounter someone whose beliefs are so radically different from mine. You are obviously pretty smart and you say you are looking for truth and are willing to ask the hard questions. Simon told me to look up your blog. I'll chime in again later....
Thanks radar...... I'm sure that we have much to discuss...
my biggest fear is that we'll find life elsewhere, and it will turn out to be just like us,,, fulfilling the prophesy of the immortal Capt. Kirk, "beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on this planet!"
My biggest fear is that we'll be too stupid to even recognise it as life & miss all the wonders they could show us.
If there was lots of life out there exactly like us, i think we may have to consider the possibility of a "creator", "seed ship" or glactic manipulator:-)
I agree with most of what you said, but I want to pose this: I've seen a number of people die and a number of animals...I mean people and animals that I was very very close to....and, something leaves the body..I know 'life' leaves the body..but, maybe it's the spirit that leaves...Spirit/Life...I know something definitely leaves the body. What do you think that is??? Do you know what I mean? Have you experienced this?
I'll be back...Time for me to go to sleep now...
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