Quote.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Marcus Aurelius AD 121-180
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3 comments:
Marcus Aurelius said...Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
What qualifies as a good life, Marcus? What level of virtue is required to satisify these just gods? If I've been virtuous, say, 50% of the time, it that enough for a just god? If 50% is the cutoff and I score a 49% what happens to me? If the gods are truly just, I guess I'm in trouble. Justice works both ways doesn't it? It is just only to reward those deserving of reward, but not to punish those deserving of punishment?
Marcus Aurelius said...If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
Maybe not, but let's be pragmatic: do you want to be noble for your short lifetime if it costs you an eternity on the bad side of an unjust god?
Marcus Aurelius said...If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Until they die; then it's just like you never existed at all. Or until 'noble' is redefined as 'ignoble' (since these things are just arbitrary human conventions) and your loved ones remember you as a heel.
LB - I hope you are kidding.
It's pretty simple. Live a good life. Live by the Golden Rule. Treat others fairly. Life's not some bingo card where you are just trying to check a few boxes on the way to some heavenly prize.
If you purposely don't act virtuous because you are afraid of offending an unjust God, you already are screwed up. Virtue is it's own reward. You shouldn't be doing it for the hope of salvation. Devoutness is not a virtue.
Ultimately, the only legacy we have is in the positive (or negative) effects we have on those we know. You would consider the human convention of nobility as arbitrary. I'd trust it more than the definition of nobility from an old book of dubious origins.
laughing boy asked: What qualifies as a good life, Marcus?
That's a good question and one which has been debated by philosophers for millennia. I'm presently researching this area and will let you know what I find.
laughing boy asked: If I've been virtuous, say, 50% of the time, it that enough for a just god?
I don't think that's how it works. If you love someone 50% of the time can it still be said that you love someone? If you are kind only 12 hours in every day can it still be said that you are kind? Becoming what the Greeks called a virtuous person is a goal to be achieved. It's not like a pair of shoes that you can slip on whenever it seems appropriate.
laughing boy said: Maybe not, but let's be pragmatic: do you want to be noble for your short lifetime if it costs you an eternity on the bad side of an unjust god?
Yes. That's the whole point. If I act in a certain way through fear then what kind of person am I? If I follow a set of rules that I consider to be immoral because I fear that the rule maker will punish me if I don't then how can I call myself a good person? How can I be a virtuous person if I do not practice virtue?
laughing boy said: Until they die; then it's just like you never existed at all.
So? We all die and the overwhelming majority of people are never remembered for long. Such is life. Throughout all of recorded History how many individuals are actually remembered for any length of time? Probably less that 0.000001% Before recorded History how many people are remembered? Even less. It is the way of things.
laughing boy said: Or until 'noble' is redefined as 'ignoble' (since these things are just arbitrary human conventions) and your loved ones remember you as a heel.
I think that to be rather unlikely. Good people are normally remembered for being good. Charity, honesty, bravery and much else besides are hardly likely to be redefined as ignoble qualities don't you think?
dbackdad said: It's pretty simple. Live a good life. Live by the Golden Rule. Treat others fairly. Life's not some bingo card where you are just trying to check a few boxes on the way to some heavenly prize.
It's a good place to start.
dbackdad said: If you purposely don't act virtuous because you are afraid of offending an unjust God, you already are screwed up. Virtue is it's own reward. You shouldn't be doing it for the hope of salvation.
Indeed.If you are being good to please someone else then you're already going to hit problems. Virtue must necessarily come from internal drives not external ones.
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