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Saturday, September 01, 2007

Atheist Ethics (Part 2)

By Julian Baggini

To my mind, the Euthypryo dilemma (presented in Part 1) is a very powerful argument against the idea that God is required for morality. Indeed, it goes further and shows that God cannot be the source of morality without morality becoming something arbitrary. There are attempts to wiggle off the prongs of the dilemma's forks, but like a trapped air bubble, pushing the problem down at one point only makes it resurface at another. For instance, some think the way out of the dilemma is to say that God just is good, so the question the dilemma poses is ill-formed. If God and good are the same thing then we cannot ask whether God chooses good because it is good - the very question separates what must come together. But the Euthypryo dilemma can be restated in another way to challenge this reply. We can ask, is God good because to be good just is to be whatever God is; or is God good because God has all the properties of goodness? If we choose the former answer we again find that goodness is arbitrary, since it would be whatever God happened to be, even if God were a sadist. So we must choose the second option: God is good because he has all the properties of goodness. But this means the properties of goodness can be specified independently of God and so the idea of goodness does not in any way depend upon the existence of God. Hence there is no reason why a denial of God's existence would necessarily entail a denial of the existence of goodness.

Right and wrong, goodness and badness, thus do not depend on the existence of God. Indeed, in order for the idea that God is good to carry any moral force, ideas of goodness need to be independent of God. Otherwise, the distinction between right and wrong becomes arbitrary. How then do we account for the widespread belief that 'without God, anything is permitted'? I think we can trace this back to a misplaced view of morality which follows the legalistic model I outlined earlier. Our religious heritage has left us with a view of morality as a set of rules which we follow in order to be rewarded (eventually) and do not transgress in order to avoid punishment. No matter what is taught in Sunday schools about virtue's own rewards, the threats of punishment, more than promises of rewards even, have been most psychologically effective in getting people to rein in their baser instincts. To believe that God is always watching you and will punish you for any wrongdoing is a very good way of avoiding doing anything contrary to the Church's teachings.

Take away these threats, however, and what is to stop you doing something wrong? Without God, anything is permitted only in the sense that there is no divine authority who will make sure you are punished for any wrongdoing. But that is neither the end of morality nor the end of civilized behaviour. The joke about parking at the start of this article illustrates the point that human beings are just as able to make and enforce prohibitions as gods. Everything will be permitted only if we abandon ourselves to anarchy, and there is no reason why someone would want to do that just because they do not believe in God. More profoundly, it is an odd morality that thinks that one can only behave ethically if one does so out of fear of punishment or promise of reward. The person who doesn't steal only because they fear they will be caught is not a moral person, merely a prudent one. The truly moral person is the one who has the opportunity to steal without being caught but still does not do so. I have argued that morality and religious belief are separate. If I am right, then the average ethical atheist actually appears to have more moral merit than the average ethical religious believer. The reason for this is that religion, with its threat of punishment and promise of reward, introduces a non-moral incentive to be moral that is absent in atheism.

One perceived problem with a godless morality is the degree of personal choice it seems to leave the individual. If there is no single moral authority, then do we all become sovereigns of our own privatized moralities? Many find this worrying, but in fact individual choice is an inescapable part of morality whether one believes in God or not.

12 comments:

Sadie Lou said...

"One perceived problem with a godless morality is the degree of personal choice it seems to leave the individual. If there is no single moral authority, then do we all become sovereigns of our own privatized moralities?"

So true. If right and wrong is based on personal morality, why do so many of us agree on what is basicly "right" and basically "wrong"? There is a common thread and it is quite clear when an individual is deviating from the norm.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie asked: If right and wrong is based on personal morality, why do so many of us agree on what is basicly "right" and basically "wrong"?

Because our personaly morality - which obviously exists as everyone has their own 'take' on moral issues - doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

Our personal morality is shaped by our culture, by our upbringing, our education, our life experience and much else besides. We two probably would agree on many moral issues because we are both living today in advanced Western capitalist democracies with a common heritage. Yet we still disagree on some important moral issues. I remember our debates on the use of torture in particular...

All humans have their humanity in common so it doesn't surprise me that we could hold certain moral beliefs in common. However, I think that culture is the predominant force in deciding our morality. The greater the difference between cultures the greater the difference between moral thought would be.

There are indeed cultural norms - but I'm not convinced that there are real *universal* norms.

Laughing Boy said...

There are indeed cultural norms - but I'm not convinced that there are real *universal* norms.

I'm operating at the edges of my understanding of ancient Greek philosophy, but I think Socrates thought otherwise. He believed human nature was constant, therefore ethical values were constant. Driven by this belief, he sought the universal norms upon which these values were based.

Euthyphro's dilemma remained unresolved by Socrates, and to conclude that it defeated the idea of external and universal moral laws goes beyond, and most likely against, what Socrates himself concluded.

I may have more rebuttle for Baggini shortly; I need some time to organize my thoughts, but in the meantime let me respond to one thing he said...

"There are attempts to wiggle off the prongs of the dilemma's forks..."

The idea that the source of morality is the character of God is expressed most succinctly in Leviticus; "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy," which was written at least 1,500 years before Socrates was born. To insinuate that Christian philosophers or theologians cobbled this together this idea in order to 'wiggle off the prongs' of Euthyphro's dilemma is misleading.

CyberKitten said...

laughing boy said: I'm operating at the edges of my understanding of ancient Greek philosophy, but I think Socrates thought otherwise. He believed human nature was constant, therefore ethical values were constant. Driven by this belief, he sought the universal norms upon which these values were based.

I'm not sure either. I know that the Ancient Greeks were very interested in discovering the unity of all things and to get at the foundations of reality. That might well have meant to fundamentals of human morality too.

laughing boy said: To insinuate that Christian philosophers or theologians cobbled this together this idea in order to 'wiggle off the prongs' of Euthyphro's dilemma is misleading.

That wasn't my understanding of Baggini's comment. I thought he meant that post-Euthypryo people had used that idea to 'wriggle off the fork'.

Sadie Lou said...

"I remember our debates on the use of torture in particular... "

I felt really misunderstood during those debates. I never said that I am in favor of the use of torture--I simply said that I can see why torture is practiced in certain circumstances. It's not a black & white issue for me at all.

"There are indeed cultural norms - but I'm not convinced that there are real *universal* norms."

You can't agree that rape is universally "wrong"? Murder? Adultry? Stealing? I can see how sch circmstances can be justified in particular circumstances but I have never heard of any of those "wrongs" being called "right".

Laughing Boy said...

I thought he meant that post-Euthypryo people had used that idea to 'wriggle off the fork'.

He says "wriggle off the fork," I say provide a well-established solution. To each his own.

From a response to Part 1:

cyberkitten said...So God is Good because he decides to be Good.

No. He does not decide, He is.

Indeed He *must* be Good? Doesn't that mean that the Good & God are two separate things?

I don't think so. Can you elaborate on why this must be? The Judeo-Christian concept is that God must be good because He is restrained by His nature to be consistent with His nature. It is not logically possible that He could be otherwise. I don't see the need for, or even the possibility of, an external goodness definition or measure that could apply to God. Socrates pondered an Ultimate Good which was sovereign over the gods. That Ultimate Good is, in a sense, what the Theist sees as God. So Socrates' dilemma points to the answer that he did not yet comprehend, as his culture had not progressed beyond polytheism.

Here's an analogy. The primary objective of a sound recording (especially of classical music) is to achieve the highest level of fidelity. The better the recording the more accurately it represents the original performance. Fidelity depends on, among other things, the quality of the recording equipment and the quality of the playback medium and equipment. What level of fidelity can be attributed to the original performance? It's a nonsense question. No external measure of fidelity can be applied. The original performance is the standard by which fidelity is measured.

Response to Part 2:

Baggini said...How then do we account for the widespread belief that 'without God, anything is permitted'?

If I read Dostoyevsky correctly, the idea is that, without God, we are 'gods' ourselves and hence we are unhindered in deciding for ourselves what is and what is not permitted. The idea that we are the closest thing to gods that exist is pervasive today, Baggini says as much. But when a person follows this idea to it's logical conclusion you come to the same place Dostoyevsky and so many others-including many atheists, past and present-did. It seems to me the only reasons some atheists don't share that dismal thought is because 1) they have faith in humanity, or 2) they don't follow it to it's logical conclusion.

I think he makes some important points in the rest of the piece. I may respond here, but this is one of those juicy items that begs for a dedicated post of my own. I need some new material there anyway.

CyberKitten said...

sadie said: I simply said that I can see why torture is practiced in certain circumstances. It's not a black & white issue for me at all.

I think that was the issue. Most of the people debating with you (including me) *did* consider it a black/white issue.

Sadie said: I can see how such circmstances can be justified in particular circumstances but I have never heard of any of those "wrongs" being called "right".

Sometimes there is a very fine line between something being justified because of circumstance and something being Right. That's why it is, I think, vital to take into account the circumstances surrounding any act before you can say whether or not it was Right.

Killing is the classic example. You *can* say that killing someone is wrong. But what about self-defence or capital punishment or war? You *can* say that legalised killing is OK but what if you are a pacifist or against abortion. How do you stand on some countries which have legalised euthanasia? Does the fact that because something is legal make it Right?

I certainly believe that somethings are Right and others Wrong. But the problem I have is the idea that somethings are always Right (or Wrong) for all time & in all circumstances. History shows us that this is not simply the case. Morality changes over time and from place to place. We *can* judge other peoples and other times from our perspective but that's all we would be doing. There is no 'Universal Yardstick' outside of human culture to measure these things against.

CyberKitten said...

Laughing boy said: If I read Dostoyevsky correctly, the idea is that, without God, we are 'gods' ourselves and hence we are unhindered in deciding for ourselves what is and what is not permitted.

Well, we are unhinded by *God* in deciding what is/is not permitted. But this does not make us 'gods' just free moral agents.

Laughing boy said: The idea that we are the closest thing to gods that exist is pervasive today, Baggini says as much.

That's news to me. There is certainly a lot of (deserved) pride in our collective achievements over our recorded history but I haven't heard it expressed that we are, in effect, god-like in our abilities. There is still much we do not know and much we cannot do. Looking at it from my point of view we do have great potential but are also beset by great difficulties that may yet undo us. In many areas we are *far* from God-like!

Laughing boy said: But when a person follows this idea to it's logical conclusion you come to the same place Dostoyevsky and so many others-including many atheists, past and present-did.

What...? That without God we have no meaning & therefore no reason to live? Hardly! Some people may have (or may still) believe such nonesense but that's what it is - nonesense!

Laughing boy said: It seems to me the only reasons some atheists don't share that dismal thought is because 1) they have faith in humanity, or 2) they don't follow it to it's logical conclusion.

Oh, I have very little faith in Humanity. We are a particularly dispicable species. As to the 'logical conclusions' of Atheism.... They would be what? Moral decay & Anarchy?

Laughing boy said: I may respond here, but this is one of those juicy items that begs for a dedicated post of my own. I need some new material there anyway.

Always happy to provide you with food for thought and material for your Blog. More Baggini to come BTW (and other contemporary philosophical thought).

Laughing Boy said...

One last comment on the original article. To start the second paragraph Baggini states, "Right and wrong...thus do not depend of the existence of God."

I contend that he has not proven this via Euthyphro's Dilemma. Regardless, his statement begs the question; if not from God then where? I don't think he answers, or even acknowleges, this obvious question.

CyberKitten said...

laughing boy said: Regardless, his statement begs the question; if not from God then where? I don't think he answers, or even acknowleges, this obvious question.

Oh... there are a few more parts of his argument to come... [grin].

From my own PoV morality is a (very) human construct developed over many thousands of years and is passed on down the generations through cultural transmission.

We each get our personal morality primarily from the culture we grow up in, from the way we are brought up, from our peers and from our education, from our life experience and probably from our genes too. That is why different cultures have different 'takes' on morality, why moral thought changes over time and why individuals even in the same family have different views on what is right and what is wrong.

The origins of morality are a lot more complicated than 'God did it' which for me at least make the whole topic very interesting.

Laughing Boy said...

I likes stuff whats not compakated.

Laughing Boy said...

:-)