War does seem to satisfy some sort of core need that humans apparently have. Call it Clubism or our need to be a part of a larger, inclusive group. When the war in Afghanistan started here people were as nationalist as I've ever seen them. Flags everywhere and stuff. People seemed to have a new layer of connection, the us vs them mentality thing. I do believe this need can be filled by watching football though.
However, there are also those who seek to obtain honor from war. Sadly, they have a sickness I don't think can be helped.
no wonder footbal here in Italy especially is becoming more and more violent... it's not just hooliganism anymore, it's ouright warring factions. It's pretty scary. But that may also be because Italy is a fascist country.
There is definitely a tribal 'instinct' deep inside humans that responds to any 'us' Vs 'them' situation. There also seems a very worrying tendency that many people have few issues with following just about any order thereby giving up (so they believe) personal responsibility for truely horrible actions. Its a dangerous mix that is responsible for much pain in the world.
Whether organised warfare of the kind seen far too often in the 20th Century is actually part of our nature is an interesting point to debate. We've certainly had a great deal of practice doing it throughout recorded history - and undoubtedly long before - and we *are* pretty good at it. Is it innate though? I, for one, certainly hope not because sooner rather than later technology will produce weapons that will make us extinct and I doubt if that will stop people using them in anger or despiration.
Well I do think violence is certainly in our nature as a means for self preservation. I also think violence is a valuable tool in many situations. I don't think organized aggressive warfare is in our nature, but I think it is a byproduct of what we created with the rise of the Nation State in the 20th century. Since the State is by nature a violent organization we can expect it to, with it's increase in size and especially legitimacy, increase it's violence output on either it's own citizens or foreign enemies.
V V said: Convenient timing for me as I begin my lectures about WWI today.
Well... It *is* Armistace Day today... [grin]
scott said: I don't think organized aggressive warfare is in our nature, but I think it is a byproduct of what we created with the rise of the Nation State in the 20th century.
There is something to that. The truely massive killing that took place back in the 20th was the product of powerful nation states with increasingly powerful technology at their disposal.
scott said: Since the State is by nature a violent organization we can expect it to, with it's increase in size and especially legitimacy, increase it's violence output on either it's own citizens or foreign enemies.
The modern nation state certainly has a great deal of violence at its disposal. I'm not sure if I fully agree with you about the State being violent by nature but I certainly appreciate where your coming from.
I meant to comment yesterday, but it slipped my mind once I went to classes. Thank you for the WW1 picture. People in the US don't realize that Veteran's Day grew out of Armistice Day. Personally, I wish we observed Armistice Day instead: on Veteran's Day, people wax about how good and honorable soldiers are, glorifying war. Armistice Day carries with it the memories of such a brutal war. Too often people in the US (and perhaps Canada) think of WW2 when they think of war. If we thought more of the Great War, perhaps US politicians would not have been so anxious to get involved in Iraq.
karlo said: Isn't it the Earth trying to rid itself of overproductive pests?
If we keep screwing with the environment Gaia will deal with us in her own way.... [grin]
sc said: Armistice Day carries with it the memories of such a brutal war.
Indeed it does. We've had a week of TV about WW1 because of the 90th Anniversary on the 11th. It was a brutal and - as far as I know - a pointless war staggering in the death tolls it caused. It does show - unfortunately - that even after such a mind boggling event such as this that man doesn't learn lessons easily.
War...... What is it good for?
11 comments:
Absolutely nothin' say it again!
War does seem to satisfy some sort of core need that humans apparently have. Call it Clubism or our need to be a part of a larger, inclusive group. When the war in Afghanistan started here people were as nationalist as I've ever seen them. Flags everywhere and stuff. People seemed to have a new layer of connection, the us vs them mentality thing. I do believe this need can be filled by watching football though.
However, there are also those who seek to obtain honor from war. Sadly, they have a sickness I don't think can be helped.
Couldn't have put it better, Scott.
no wonder footbal here in Italy especially is becoming more and more violent... it's not just hooliganism anymore, it's ouright warring factions. It's pretty scary. But that may also be because Italy is a fascist country.
Zod, I hate it here :-(
I know what you mean Scott/tf.
There is definitely a tribal 'instinct' deep inside humans that responds to any 'us' Vs 'them' situation. There also seems a very worrying tendency that many people have few issues with following just about any order thereby giving up (so they believe) personal responsibility for truely horrible actions. Its a dangerous mix that is responsible for much pain in the world.
Whether organised warfare of the kind seen far too often in the 20th Century is actually part of our nature is an interesting point to debate. We've certainly had a great deal of practice doing it throughout recorded history - and undoubtedly long before - and we *are* pretty good at it. Is it innate though? I, for one, certainly hope not because sooner rather than later technology will produce weapons that will make us extinct and I doubt if that will stop people using them in anger or despiration.
Convenient timing for me as I begin my lectures about WWI today.
Well I do think violence is certainly in our nature as a means for self preservation. I also think violence is a valuable tool in many situations. I don't think organized aggressive warfare is in our nature, but I think it is a byproduct of what we created with the rise of the Nation State in the 20th century. Since the State is by nature a violent organization we can expect it to, with it's increase in size and especially legitimacy, increase it's violence output on either it's own citizens or foreign enemies.
V V said: Convenient timing for me as I begin my lectures about WWI today.
Well... It *is* Armistace Day today... [grin]
scott said: I don't think organized aggressive warfare is in our nature, but I think it is a byproduct of what we created with the rise of the Nation State in the 20th century.
There is something to that. The truely massive killing that took place back in the 20th was the product of powerful nation states with increasingly powerful technology at their disposal.
scott said: Since the State is by nature a violent organization we can expect it to, with it's increase in size and especially legitimacy, increase it's violence output on either it's own citizens or foreign enemies.
The modern nation state certainly has a great deal of violence at its disposal. I'm not sure if I fully agree with you about the State being violent by nature but I certainly appreciate where your coming from.
Isn't it the Earth trying to rid itself of overproductive pests?
I meant to comment yesterday, but it slipped my mind once I went to classes. Thank you for the WW1 picture. People in the US don't realize that Veteran's Day grew out of Armistice Day. Personally, I wish we observed Armistice Day instead: on Veteran's Day, people wax about how good and honorable soldiers are, glorifying war. Armistice Day carries with it the memories of such a brutal war. Too often people in the US (and perhaps Canada) think of WW2 when they think of war. If we thought more of the Great War, perhaps US politicians would not have been so anxious to get involved in Iraq.
karlo said: Isn't it the Earth trying to rid itself of overproductive pests?
If we keep screwing with the environment Gaia will deal with us in her own way.... [grin]
sc said: Armistice Day carries with it the memories of such a brutal war.
Indeed it does. We've had a week of TV about WW1 because of the 90th Anniversary on the 11th. It was a brutal and - as far as I know - a pointless war staggering in the death tolls it caused. It does show - unfortunately - that even after such a mind boggling event such as this that man doesn't learn lessons easily.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,589791,00.html
Color photos of various WW1 scenery -- astounding quality for the period.
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