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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Monday, October 25, 2010

Thinking About: Ghosts and Ghoulies



With Halloween almost upon us my thoughts naturally turn to the supernatural – OK, not really but it seemed like a good way to start….. Anyway – ghosts and such like….. My short answer is that I don’t believe in them and never have (except maybe as a very young undiscriminating child). The problem I have with them is two fold. Firstly there is the matter of evidence – or should I say lack thereof? As with most other elements of supernaturalism there doesn’t seem to be a lot of hard evidence around to support it. This is what annoyed me most about the X-Files (for example), lots of running around, lots of spooky goings on and, no matter the amount of effort involved in the investigation, not one jot of credible evidence to support anything. You would think that, by now after hundreds of years of investigation and thousands of years of ‘eye-witness reports’ we’d have something to back it up. Instead we have unsupported testimony, feelings and the occasional grainy photograph that could be anything and could easily be faked. In this case absence of evidence is practically the same as evidence of absence.

My other problem, which I think is much greater than the mere lack of any evidence, is the fact that I do not believe that there is any mechanism whereby ghosts can be created. For instance you would have to have something that could survive a person’s death. This, according to some ghost stories, wouldn’t have to be the whole person just an image and some behaviour patterns but even so there would have had to be ‘something’ that could be transferred after death. This is where we get into the rather messy area of souls. Several major religions appear to believe that there is a unique part of us that is non-material and that survives the death of the physical body. Some believe that this is judged on death and goes to a good place/bad place. Others think that it is reincarnated according to how you have behaved in previous lives. Both agree that this non-corporeal, non-material thing is ‘you’. I have struggled with the amount of questions this raises. What is it? Where is it located? Why hasn’t it been detected (even by accident)? How exactly does a non-material thing (whatever that means) communicate with the physical realm? Of course, as with much of the supernatural, people have tried to shoehorn Quantum Mechanics into the frame. Maybe, they say, the mind in moments of anguish imprints parts of itself on the fabric of space-time thereby creating the illusion of ghostly activity that certain people – more sensitive than the rest of us – can detect to varying degrees. That certainly sounds feasible until you start asking those pesky questions again. How does the mind do this exactly? Can such imprinting be taught and produced at will? What level of anguish is required to produce a good image that people can see or feel? The more questions you ask the messier it gets. But that’s how the supernatural usually works. Taken at face value we have mysteries and explanations. Start digging and all you have are unanswerable questions.

Ghost stories are part of our culture because they are easy to believe, hard to disprove and often entertaining into the bargain. They can be used to back up the beautiful lie of life after death and as morality tales to keep people on the straight and narrow. They can be used to frighten young children and to sell some questionable merchandise at the end of October each year. Superstitions about ghosts and much else besides are not going away anytime soon but they are hangovers from an earlier less sceptical age. Enjoy them for what they are but don’t imagine that there really are things that go bump in the night.

12 comments:

wstachour said...

I love that there were no alien abductions until we began shooting stuff into space. Then, suddenly, we became "alien aware" and our supernatural experiences became all of this nature. It used to be angels and demons and sprites and faeries; now it's space aliens.

And what's with the wings on angels? If they're incorporeal, why would they need wings? And why would those wings be BIRD wings? Aren't we mammals? Wouldn't we have BAT wings? Or maybe membranes like a flying squirrel?

VV said...

I am going to respond to this, I just don't have the time to respond at length right now, but I will be back! :-)

CyberKitten said...

wunelle said: I love that there were no alien abductions until we began shooting stuff into space.

It's interesting to know that the shape of UFO's changed with the types of aircraft in the skies. The first modern UFO's were cigar shaped - not unlike zeppelins.... and of course more modern UFO's are shaped like triangles - not unlike the stealth fighter....

wunelle said: And why would those wings be BIRD wings? Aren't we mammals? Wouldn't we have BAT wings? Or maybe membranes like a flying squirrel?

Bird wings are pretty hence associated with angels... bat wings are ugly hence associated with demons.

V V said: I am going to respond to this, I just don't have the time to respond at length right now, but I will be back! :-)

Oh, I had a feeling you would. In fact I had a vision of you looking over my shoulder as I wrote it [laughs].

VV said...

"My short answer is that I don’t believe in them[.]"

You don't need to believe in them for them to exist anyway, just like God, and that's okay. I like that you don't believe, that you question and reason things out. I would also like concrete proof so that I don't feel like a crazy person for believing.

I don't believe we have the technology yet to track what this phenomena is, but I do believe one day we will. Then it will either be seen as just so much residual energy floating around that makes us think we're seeing things, or we will actually discover it's so much more.

They can already expose people to certain levels of electromagnetic energy and the people either feel fear, feel like someone is watching them, or have hallucinations. Maybe seeing ghosts is just some people being more sensitive to atmospheric changes, but maybe not. I've had too many wide-eyed, clear experiences myself, that I now believe something is there and it's more than just a little extra electromagnetic energy.

"The problem I have with them is two fold. Firstly there is the matter of evidence – or should I say lack thereof?"

Evidence is what gets me to watch Ghost Hunters on the SciFi Channel. I love when they get a voice on a recorder or get responsive knocks or moved objects. It makes me believe, especially when they respond accordingly to specific requests, that there has to be an intelligence there. I know some people will say it's all fake, it's a t.v. show, but I believe in the two guys who started TAPS. They did it to debunk the ghost phenomena and sometimes, they get evidence that they can't debunk. Anyway, none of the evidence is enough to prove the existence of ghosts, it's just enough to say, hey, that's weird, we can't explain how that happened.

"My other problem, which I think is much greater than the mere lack of any evidence, is the fact that I do not believe that there is any mechanism whereby ghosts can be created."

Well if ghosts are some form of energy, doesn't that get you to that physics conundrum that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it only changes form? So how would you create the energy to make a ghost? You would have to pull energy from your environment and make it fit into some unknown structure and make it behave like a ghost, when we really don't know what a ghost is, how it's formed, what it's structure is. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well, but if you don't know if ghosts exist or what they really are or are made of, of course, how would you create one in the lab? I think we need to capture the essence of what a ghost is first, figure out how it's formed to try and duplicate it in a lab.

VV said...

"This is where we get into the rather messy area of souls. Several major religions appear to believe that there is a unique part of us that is non-material and that survives the death of the physical body. . . . I have struggled with the amount of questions this raises. What is it? Where is it located? Why hasn’t it been detected (even by accident)? How exactly does a non-material thing (whatever that means) communicate with the physical realm?"

It's funny you mention souls. My daughter was talking to a psychic yesterday (yes, I know, sigh) and the psychic told her something about my dog that has been dead now for over 10 years. Without my daughter telling her really anything about the animal, she told my daughter it was a German Shepherd, and, unlike all the other souls she communicated with that day, who all were still on the other side, she said this dog had come back, he was doing important work and that he would see us all again. The last thing I said to that dog before he died, was "come find me again." Because I do believe in reincarnation and the soul and that whole afterlife thing. Whether this psychic was actually tapping into something or was full of it, her message brought me comfort. Maybe that's the whole point of religion, to bring us comfort in this big, scary world. But if all I had was belief and never any experiences, I probably would be more skeptical. I know some people would argue, that I placed a certain interpretation on my experiences because of my belief system. That could be true in some cases, but I've also experienced things that don't fit in with my belief system that are of a paranormal character that I really don't want to experience again. So I believe there's something to all this, I just don't understand what it is and how it works.

"Of course, as with much of the supernatural, people have tried to shoehorn Quantum Mechanics into the frame. Maybe, they say, the mind in moments of anguish imprints parts of itself on the fabric of space-time thereby creating the illusion of ghostly activity that certain people – more sensitive than the rest of us – can detect to varying degrees."

Just as blood can stain a fabric and we can't see it with the naked eye, but the police can use chemicals or lights to reveal it, so too can the panicked scatter of someone's traumatic experiences stain the fabric of the environment around where it happened. We just haven't figured out how to reveal it to our naked eye yet. I believe some people can pick up on this, can tune into it, much like we use a radio to tune into a distant station, some radios are better equipped to pick up the signal, so too are some people.

"How does the mind do this exactly?" I don't know. I don't know how we bleed either, but I know we do. I don't know how the brain can take chemical and electrical signals and operate our bodies, but it does. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't stop it from happening. This reminds me for some reason of the Inquisition and Galileo. He understood what researchers before him discovered, that the sun was the center of the universe, what's more, because of his new enhanced telecope, he could now prove it. That didn't stop the Catholic Church from disbelieving it and trying to silence him. Maybe we believers are Galileo and we have to work at adapting our instruments to prove the truth we see.

VV said...

When Star Trek came out with all those cool devices, we believed they were science fiction. Now that we've created a number of those devices, what do we know? That if we imagine something, we can bring it into existence, it just takes time to figure out how to do that. Are we imagining ghosts and souls? Will we create synthetic ghosts and souls? Do they already exist, but we just haven't figured out how to prove their existence? I'm on the side of science, in that I have faith that somebody will figure this out one day and then it won't be paranormal, or superstition, it will simply become one more thing in our universe that we now understand.

"Ghost stories are part of our culture because they are easy to believe, hard to disprove and often entertaining into the bargain. They can be used to back up the beautiful lie of life after death[.]" I don't believe "life after death" is a lie. We were all somewhere before we got here in these bodies, these lives, and we will return from whence we came. I have seen and known things from other people's lifetimes that I shouldn't have known. Were they evidence of past lives, a universal consciousness? I went to a town with a friend. Before we got there I told her, this is what we will find and this is how the house is laid out, explaining the location of each room and each member of the family's bedrooms. I had never been to that town before. I had never seen the house before, certainly I didn't know where each member of the family slept, yet when we got there, it was literally, exactly as I said. What's more, my friend had an experience while there, that we were later able to confirm. So what was all that? Evidence of something? A freakish number of coincidences? My life has been filled with whispers from the past and I wonder each time it happens, "why are you whispering in my ear? Go find somebody else." I never knew what to do with any of the information, it was entertaining in an odd sort of way, like parlor tricks. But when I started getting more information and the images were not as innocuous, at first I tried to be proactive and get the information to the police, but then after awhile, I couldn't take the emotional toll that these images were causing so I spent the next few years learning how to block them. Now I seldom see or hear anything. I've tuned out so that I can focus on this life, my life and not all this other chatter going on out there in the universe. Weird huh?

VV said...

"Superstitions about ghosts and much else besides are not going away anytime soon but they are hangovers from an earlier less skeptical age. Enjoy them for what they are but don’t imagine that there really are things that go bump in the night."

Oh, there really are things that go bump in the night and you're very fortunate if you never experience them. Not everything out there is nice, just like our living, human population. Imagine if you slept on a cot out in the middle of a street in a large city and all night long rats, bugs, homeless people, criminals were coming up to you and harassing you. For some people, their sensitivity is like that. They are bombarded with voices, images, experiences. I can hear the skeptics saying, "yeah, they're called paranoid schizophrenics." Mental illness aside, perfectly sane people have these experiences and they have to figure out how to come indoors, close the doors and windows and keep all the riff-raff at bay. I think when I first started experiencing these things, I was indoors and then I opened up so much, I figuratively wandered outside and exposed myself to more than I could handle. Now I live in a tight, secure fortress where I don't go out and nothing comes in. Believing in life after death is fine, but I don't believe I need constant experiences to confirm to me that there is more to all this than I can explain or prove.

Okay, so that was probably way longer than I intended. Hope you muddled through it all.

CyberKitten said...

V V said: You don't need to believe in them for them to exist anyway, just like God, and that's okay.

Yes, just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's a statement of belief not of fact.

V V said: I don't believe we have the technology yet to track what this phenomena is, but I do believe one day we will.

I struggle with the idea that there is any phenomena *to* track...

V V said: Maybe seeing ghosts is just some people being more sensitive to atmospheric changes, but maybe not.

It's possible - maybe that's why certain places are considered to be haunted... because of magnetic anomolies.... Apparently very real feeling religious experiences have been induced with electro-magnets. Maybe ghosts are the same sort of thing...

V V said: Evidence is what gets me to watch Ghost Hunters on the SciFi Channel.

I've seen bits of the British version. I don't believe a second of it. I'm afraid that I don't count TV shows of evidence of much.....

V V said: Anyway, none of the evidence is enough to prove the existence of ghosts, it's just enough to say, hey, that's weird, we can't explain how that happened.

It might be enough to say 'that's weird' and then try to find out what happened - or even *if* it happened. But not having a handy explanation doesn't make it unexplained (or unexplainable) just not explained....

V V said: Well if ghosts are some form of energy, doesn't that get you to that physics conundrum that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it only changes form?

But if ghosts are a form of energy they should be able to be detected as such surely?

V V said: I think we need to capture the essence of what a ghost is first, figure out how it's formed to try and duplicate it in a lab.

Sounds like a plan - or an outline for a SF short story....

V V said: My daughter was talking to a psychic yesterday (yes, I know, sigh)

Been there... done that..... [grin]

V V said: I believe some people can pick up on this, can tune into it, much like we use a radio to tune into a distant station, some radios are better equipped to pick up the signal, so too are some people.

Possibly... but I still tend to doubt it. As you know I've had a few mild 'experiences' myself - but it doesn't mean that I believe in the supernatural.

V V said: This reminds me for some reason of the Inquisition and Galileo. He understood what researchers before him discovered, that the sun was the center of the universe, what's more, because of his new enhanced telecope, he could now prove it. That didn't stop the Catholic Church from disbelieving it and trying to silence him.

It wasn't that the Church didn't believe him, it was that his observations went against Church dogma - rather than Church research. They knew that once you undermine a small (relatively benign) piece of Church teaching then the whole thing can - and in fact did - unravel. That's why they tried to supress his findings. Although Scientists have their own beliefs and their own axes to grinds I think they're more open minded than the Cathoic Church ever was...

V V said: I'm on the side of science, in that I have faith that somebody will figure this out one day and then it won't be paranormal, or superstition, it will simply become one more thing in our universe that we now understand.

Possibly. If they exist in the first place.

CyberKitten said...

V V said: I don't believe "life after death" is a lie.

It is a very useful belief both for those who hold it and for those who promote it. Its very seductive too - but I still don't believe a word of it.

V V said: I've tuned out so that I can focus on this life, my life and not all this other chatter going on out there in the universe. Weird huh?

Weird indeed. I'm not going to offer any kind of attempted explanation because such things are completely foreign to me. I have heard and read many similar stories both from people I know and complete strangers. However, I am far too skeptical to accept it at face value. Their *might* be something odd going on - and in previous ages it would be accepted as proof of many things - but I struggled with leaping the barrier between the natural world - which I regard as everything real - and the supernatural world which if proved to exist would blow everything we think we know out of the water. That I cannot accept without a mountain of hard irrefutable evidence I'm afraid.

V V said: Believing in life after death is fine, but I don't believe I need constant experiences to confirm to me that there is more to all this than I can explain or prove.

We don't know everything. Indeed we probably know very little in the grand scheme of things. After all we've only been doing real science for a few hundred years. We're just starting out. I'm sure that there are many things ahead of us that will be surprises and some that will knock us on our collective asses. But, from today, with our present knowledge and experience I cannot accept the (presently unfounded) assumption that their is a supernatural realm existing alongside the natural one. Unless and until it is proven otherwise I will go on assuming that the natural world is the only world.

V V said: Okay, so that was probably way longer than I intended. Hope you muddled through it all.

I did. Thanks for the time and effort you put into it. I can be a very hard-faced sceptic at times which I know gets some peoples backs up - not you obviously! Just as it would take a lot to convince me to believe in God it would take a great deal to get me to believe in Ghosts - even at this time of year....

VV said...

As to the Catholic Church, I know the higher ranking officials knew and believed the sun was the center of the universe because they changed the calendar based on Copernicus' findings, still there were some in the Catholic Church who truly believed otherwise. Thanks for your response. It could be that you are absolutely correct in your assessment and I am wrong, or it could turn out differently, and I am okay with that. Now if only we could get people in politics to agree to disagree without feeling threatened. :-)

CyberKitten said...

V V said: It could be that you are absolutely correct in your assessment and I am wrong, or it could turn out differently, and I am okay with that.

Either of us could be wrong - both of us could be wrong. One day we might find out....

V V said: Now if only we could get people in politics to agree to disagree without feeling threatened. :-)

Indeed. What we have is a difference of *opinion*. If we got uptight about that we'd be in serious trouble!

OldLady Of The Hills said...

I do believe there are UFO's and I have a very very dear friend who was whisked away in the mid 1960's by something....I don't have any doubt that THAT actually happened to him and he has oarticipated in some gatherings where ALL the people have had UFO experiences of some kind, not dis-similar to his....
No, it hasn't happened to me, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't, maybe.

It is ALL very very interesting, isn't it?