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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Thursday, October 27, 2005

Born of a Virgin?

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson (1823)


A majority of Americans -- and a larger percentage of Christians -- believe Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary and did not have a human father a Newsweek poll recently showed. Seventy-nine percent of Americans and 87 percent of Christians said that was their belief. Fifteen percent of Americans and 8 percent of Christians said they did not share that belief. Results of the poll on beliefs about Jesus are included in a Dec. 13 2004 Newsweek cover story on "The Birth of Jesus." Researchers with Princeton Survey Research Associates found that 93 percent of Americans think Jesus Christ actually lived and 82 percent think he was God or the son of God. Fifty-two percent of respondents said they believe Jesus will return to Earth in the next millennium, and 15 percent said they believe he will return in their lifetime.

Yet St. Paul does not mention the virgin birth anywhere in his writings. It would seem reasonable to assume that if Paul had known of the special conditions of Jesus' birth that he would have mentioned them in one of his epistles. In fact, the opposite appears to be true: he seems to have thought that the birth was natural and conventional:

Between 49 and 55 CE, he recorded the first known reference to Jesus' birth. In Galatians 4:4, he writes:

"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law." If he had been aware of the virgin birth, he would have undoubtedly replaced "woman" with "virgin", or made some other change to show that the birth was miraculous. This passage was written some 45 years before the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written, and 55 to 62 years after Jesus' birth.

In about 57 CE, he wrote his only other reference to Jesus' birth. In Romans 1:1-3 he writes: "I Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and separated onto the gospel of God...concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." The phrase "of the seed of David" strongly indicates that Paul believed Jesus to be the son of Joseph, because Matthew traces Jesus' genealogy from David to Joseph. The phrase "according to the flesh" implies a natural, normal conception and birth.

A further interesting twist is this:

Most liberal theologians believe that the author of the Gospel of Matthew (or someone who supplied the writer with source material) scanned an unknown ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. He found what he believed to be a reference to Jesus' birth. It was in Isaiah 7:14. This has since become a famous passage; it is often recited at Christmas time. He simply copied it into Matthew (1:23) as a method of showing that prophecies in the Hebrew Testament were fulfilled in Jesus' life. As it happens, the Greek translators had made a mistake. When they were translating the Hebrew writings into the Greek Septuagint and similar translations, they converted the Hebrew word "almah" as the Greek equivalent of our English word for virgin. "Almah" appears 9 other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means "young woman". When the scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word "betulah". So, Isaiah appears to have referred to a young woman becoming pregnant -- a rather ordinary event.

Now those who know me or have read parts of the Blog know I’m an atheist. So why am I writing about the Virgin Birth? It’s partially because though I don’t actually believe in God (and much else to do with Religion in general) I do find certain aspects of it rather interesting – the Virgin Birth being one of them.

So… Was the tale of the Virgin Birth simply started by a mistranslation? Was it used to later bolster the divinity of Jesus? Does it really matter?

All very good questions… and I do like asking questions…

[Please note that parts of this Blog were shamelessly stolen from various websites after a Google search and could be completely wrong. I rely on those who have MUCH greater knowledge of the Bible to put things right as necessary]

As J.S. Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ, wrote: "In time, the virgin birth account will join Adam and Eve and the story of the cosmic ascension as clearly recognized mythological elements in our faith tradition whose purpose was not to describe a literal event but to capture the transcendent dimensions of God in the earthbound words and concepts of first-century human beings."

15 comments:

Sadie Lou said...

Here's what I say about the Virgin Birth. Jesus Christ was God among us. He was sinless. In order to not inherit the fallen nature of orginal sin--he couldn't have an earthly father.
Mary was a virgin. Due to popular opinion--that doesn't make her "sinless". It means she was pure.
The Holy Spirit came upon her and she was with child. Jesus was born of a woman in order to be able to complete his savational death on the cross and satisfy The Father. He died for our sins.
He knows the temptation of sin because he was human--fully man but at the same time--fully God.
It's a beautiful, complexity.

Juggling Mother said...

Hmm, yeah right.

Jesus almost certainly existed. He was rather conveniently born during a Roman census - hence the whole walking to Bethlehem thing. People were required to reister in the town of their birth. Mary was from Bethlehem, off she went at 9 months preggers.

I was always taught that "virgin" was a mis-translation. The actual translation should have been "young, unmarried woman" which is possibly why they changed it in later years.

in Palestine 2000 years ago, marriage was more of a mutual agreement of your neighbours than a recognised ceremony, and it's quite possible the Rabbi did not declare Mary & Joseph married until after they knew she was pregnant. Pre-marital sex was not considered a terrible sin in the Roman or Palestinian culture.

82% believe he was God or the son of God. wow, what % of Americans are non-christian? Are there no liberal christians there at all?

I'm reasonably certain that he did a bit of preaching too - it was a big trend at the time. Religions were rising & falling all over the place. The world was ripe for a moral/equality driven faith. I expect he was crucified. It wasn't particularly uncommon.

I always feel for poor old Joseph. he raises a good son, teaches him everything he knows, he gets a proper job as a carpenter, then gets mixed up with some heretics & dies, spawning a religion in direct contrast to Judaism (in many ways) Oi Vey, what kind of life is that for a nice Jewish boy. He could have been a doctor, or a merchant , with a nice wife, a few kids. It's not too much too ask is it? a grandchild or two?

craziequeen said...

I have, as you know ck, real problems with the Virgin Birth.

I prefer to think of Jesus, son of Joseph, as a man; a man chosen by God to light the way.

But then, this is unusual in a Christian - for whom the Virgin Birth underpins their belief.

My belief is with the Lord - not the messenger.

But then, as I have previously told you the very essence of Belief (belief in anything!) is a *very* personal thing.

cq

CyberKitten said...

CQ said: But then, as I have previously told you the very essence of Belief (belief in anything!) is a *very* personal thing.

Indeed they are. In a lot of ways our beliefs make us what we are. That's why debate about some subjects can get very heated indeed. By asking questions about a persons belief this can be interpreted as questioning the idea of the person themselves - which some can find very threatening.

Personally I am not in the business of undermining a persons belief in anything. I am, however (as you know) interested in what people believe and why they believe it. I am also not afraid to put forward my own ideas which may contradict those of the other person... but where would be the fun if we all agreed on stuff?

stc said...

This post doesn't constitute a personal affront for me, Cyberkitten, because I don't believe the virgin birth was a historical event, any more than you do.

But it offends me that you posted on the subject. I don't buy your explanation. I don't think your motivation runs any deeper than this: you enjoy sticking it to believers. It doesn't say anything very flattering about you.

Post on something more interesting. Post on something that is of significance to you personally, instead of belittling things that are of personal significance to others.
Q

craziequeen said...

Q says: I don't think your motivation runs any deeper than this: you enjoy sticking it to believers. It doesn't say anything very flattering about you.

I have to disagree most strongly - although cyberkitten's methods may be perceived as brutal, he is only ever (as his blog says) seeking the truth. We have had long discussions about faith and religion (particularly mine!), and along with the probing questions, he has always had the utmost respect for my beliefs.

The Virgin Birth is one area that most 'unbelievers' have real problems with.

But then, most faiths have myth in their background - which is what tests the mettle of their faith. Do they believe blindly, do they accept the myth with a practical perspective or do they enquire and bust the myth?
Which is, in essence, ck's three questions.

cq

CyberKitten said...

Q said: But it offends me that you posted on the subject. I don't buy your explanation. I don't think your motivation runs any deeper than this: you enjoy sticking it to believers. It doesn't say anything very flattering about you.

Ok... Why does it offend you that I posted on this subject? You don't seem to have any problem with the message itself. As you said you don't believe in the Virgin birth any more than I do. IIRC you also don't believe in the divinty of Jesus (which was one possible explanation for the continuation of the Virgin Birth story).. and yet... you have a problem with the messenger delivering this particular message.

Is it merely because I'm a self professed atheist? By that have I excluded myself from discussing some of the more detailed aspects of Christianity? You seemed fairly happy with me discussing religion in general (even if you didn't like what I said very much) but you never denied my 'right' to say it.

As we don't know each other - how do you know what my motivation is for posting this Blog? Are you, by any chance, asuming that as a stereotypical atheist I can have no other interest in this subject except to 'stick it to' the believers? Didn't you warn me in an earlier post about passing generalised judgements? Is this what you are now doing?

Q finally said: Post on something more interesting. Post on something that is of significance to you personally, instead of belittling things that are of personal significance to others.

Have I belittled things? I've certainly questioned them. Is this belittlement? Are we talking about Taboo subjects now? Are there things that are generally off limits or does that just apply to me?

I am interested in many, many things - basically just about everything except sport. So far in this still very young Blog I've posted on various things.. and there will be future posts on topics from politics, science, philosophy and religion (plus anything that catches my eye in the News).

As to posting on something 'more interesting'.... More interesting to who? If I post something that generates no interest (which is bound to happen) then no one will comment. But I'm not going to let that bother me. After all despite the population on the Internet I seriously doubt if my 'interests' are held by all that many people.

I hope your disapointment in me won't put you off from visting here again. I enjoy discussing things with you.

Sadie Lou said...

So nobody has anything to say at what I posted? I find it interesting that I'm the only person here that posted I DO believe in the virgin birth, yet it's the people who DON'T that are debating--:)

stc said...

• Cyberkitten:
You don't believe in God. You don't believe in a spiritual realm. So the Virgin Birth is about as far outside your orbit as Pluto is from the sun.

You could find it interesting from a purely cultural perspective, but I doubt that, too. By your own admission, you haven't studied the texts; you've just spent a few minutes borrowing comments from other blogs. If you find the subject so interesting, why haven't you given it more than about 15 minutes' attention?

And when people offer information about religion, you don't respond in anything like a sympathetic manner; you just slap down whatever they say. (I don't just mean me, I see craziequeen and Sadie Lou getting the same treatment.)

You're not open-minded; your position is not up for negotiation. So why raise the issue of the Virgin Birth except to piss all over something that is a cherished belief of many people?

It is not fun to contradict people's cherished beliefs, but I think it is fun for you.

• craziequeen:
You have face-to-face conversations with Cyberkitten, and perhaps he comes across more respectfully in that context. But I think he shows no sensitivity here.

• Sadie Lou:
I think we all appreciate where you're coming from. You represent the biblical teachings accurately, and I genuinely admire your convictions.

I, for one, have no interest in debating the subject with you, because I don't want to be in the role of attacking one of your cherished beliefs. I won't do it.
Q

CyberKitten said...

Q - I think we are definitely misunderstanding each other here. I think we are using words we appear to have in common but that mean (or at least seem to mean) different things to each other.

For one thing I do not consider that I am 'contradicting' peoples beliefs. I am questioning them - and putting forward my own up for discusion. I am more than happy to admit that I might be completely wrong on just about everything I say. I am open to persuasion - it's just that I've seen/heard precious little to persude me from my position (and I don't just mean this & other Blogs).

I also don't believe that I 'slap down' other people. When they come back with ideas or arguments I ask more questions or put forward counter-arguments. Isn't this the way to move an argument forward? Or at least generate some light amidst all this heat. Haven't I at least attempted to answer most of the questions posed to me?

I do ask some searching & tough questions. I'm sorry if you see that as some kind of attack. However, you too pose tough ones & question my "cherished beliefs". I do not feel as if I am being attacked - well, I mostly anyway.

Sadie Lou said...

• Sadie Lou:
I think we all appreciate where you're coming from. You represent the biblical teachings accurately, and I genuinely admire your convictions.

I, for one, have no interest in debating the subject with you, because I don't want to be in the role of attacking one of your cherished beliefs. I won't do it.
Q


Thanks, Q. That is very respectful and greatly appreciated.

Cyberkitten--you still haven't addressed my comment. I was the very first one to say anything and I feel it deserves your attention since it explains the very heart of your post. I beginning to side with Q on this--you maybe aren't really interested in what a Christian has to say about this.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie Lou said: Cyberkitten--you still haven't addressed my comment. I was the very first one to say anything and I feel it deserves your attention since it explains the very heart of your post. I beginning to side with Q on this--you maybe aren't really interested in what a Christian has to say about this.

I'm not exactly sure what you expected me to say. Your comment on the Virgin Birth certainly corresponds to what I was taught in school. Beyond that... how are you expecting me to respond?

Sadie Lou said...

From your post So… Was the tale of the Virgin Birth simply started by a mistranslation? Was it used to later bolster the divinity of Jesus? Does it really matter?

What I said...

Jesus was born of a woman in order to be able to complete his savational death on the cross and satisfy The Father. He died for our sins.
He knows the temptation of sin because he was human--fully man but at the same time--fully God.
It's a beautiful, complexity.

I thought what I posted would help to answer the questions you asked--apparently not.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie Lou said: I thought what I posted would help to answer the questions you asked--apparently not.

I took it to be your opinion on the matter - for which I (very) belatedly thank you.

Sadie Lou said...

Good enough. :)