The Universe is out to ‘Get Me’.
Prompted by a recent discussion with Q on this Blog about a Godless Universe I thought that I would muse for a bit on that feeling we have probably all experienced – that the Universe is out to ‘Get Us’.
But think about it for a second (or maybe two). Just how reasonable is that statement?
Try this experiment the next time you’re out and about on your daily travels. If you see a rock laying on the ground go pick it up (if you can) and look at it for a moment (or two). Now think about this: Does the rock have any benevolent feelings toward you or is it malevolent? By now you should be feeling quite silly – standing there in a public place wondering at the intentions of a rock toward you. But you should also see the point that I’m trying to make (I hope).
The rock, clearly, has no intentions either good or bad toward you. It’s a rock. Rocks don’t have feelings or intentions only living creatures have those. Now think a bit wider. Is the Universe benevolent or malevolent? Is that question substantially different from the rock question? The entire Universe is basically a collection of big rocks orbiting stars scattered through an enormous area of space. The Universe isn’t alive (though it obviously has life contained within it) so how can it have any intentions towards you – and just think of the amount of hubris needed to consider whether the entire Universe actually cares about your well being one way or another.
Take it back down to a smaller scale. Is the Earth benevolent or malevolent? Well, parts of it are pretty nice but other parts are too cold, too hot, too dry and so on. Does the rock, the Earth or the entire Universe care one way or another about your well being? The answer is no. They don’t because they are incapable of caring. They are dead objects. They have no intentions either way. They are all indifferent to you (and me too actually). They are neither benevolent nor are they malevolent.
So next time you think that the Universe is out to ‘Get You’ pause for a thought and look around for a rock to question.
About Me
- CyberKitten
- I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.
35 comments:
The problen is that many people believe that there are invisible forces that drive the universe. That these invisible forces use things like hurricanes and earthquakes to punish people.
If your view is that people of that area were somehow estranged from God's morality, people believe that he directs the punishment. Like Hurricane Rita and that "den of iniquity they call New Orleans".
Many Muslims believe that Satan was responsible for punishing Pakistan with the earthquake because it's citizens supported Allah's cause against the US, Isreal, and India. Ironicaly, many Christians and Hindu's believe it was God punishing these people for the same reason!
Those who believe in irrational systems of authority will always seek evidence to support their beliefs, no matter how irrational (greatwhitebear sighs here). Tis the sorry state of humanity.
greatwhitebear said: Those who believe in irrational systems of authority will always seek evidence to support their beliefs, no matter how irrational (greatwhitebear sighs here). Tis the sorry state of humanity.
Sad but true I'm afraid.
If they could I'm sure the architects of the Enlightenment would by rotating in their graves about now.
I do wonder what went wrong. Why have SO many people seemingly turned their backs on reason? Is a Godless Universe THAT frightening to most people?
LIFE is that frightening to most people! Much easier to have someone to blame than to accept that shit happens.
Well... as we normally fear what we don't understand... maybe that's a good excuse for a bit more understanding and a bit less fear....
A cousin of mine said something stuck a chord with me in church today. She said she watched a Woody Allen movie and a character walks in on another character watching a movie about the holocaust. She says," How could this have happened?"
The character watching says," I see man and I think to myself 'how does this not happen every day?"
I think given a chance, a Godless universe would be just that--the holocaust every day time 7.
Sadie Lou said: I think given a chance, a Godless universe would be just that--the holocaust every day time 7.
Why? Are we only restrained from being monsters by the fear of God? So what's holding back all the atheists?
..and more to the point why didn't He prevent the holocaust (and much else besides) in the first place.
• greatwhitebear
Those who believe in irrational systems of authority will always seek evidence to support their beliefs, no matter how irrational.
This is correct, except it isn't limited to people who believe in "irrational systems of authority". (I assume that, by that phrase, you mean those of us who have faith in a supreme being.)
All human beings naturally seek evidence to support their beliefs: theists and atheists alike.
The wisest atheists are aware of that tendency in themselves and actively seek evidence to falsify their pet beliefs. When I hear someone say (as Cyberkitten has said) that there is no evidence for the other point of view, I know they aren't resisting their own biases as strenuously as they ought to do.
Yes, there is evidence against the notion of a godless universe. At the very least, there are some fundamental matters that science is still utterly powerless to explain.
Likewise, the wisest theists also resist their tendency to "prove" what they already believe, over and over again. I am well aware of the evidence against a theistic worldview; my faith is not naive.
• Cyberkitten:
In a previous comment, I said, a godless universe is an absurd and cruel universe. I assume that's the statement that prompted this post.
I didn't say that the universe is "out to get us". "Cruel" may come close to being an anthropomorphism, but it isn't quite.
What's cruel is, we all care passionately for our own survival and well-being, plus the survival and well-being of our loved ones. But, just as you put it,
Does the rock, the Earth or the entire Universe care one way or another about your well being? The answer is no.
Sometimes indifference is indistinguishable from cruelty.
• The Universe isn’t alive (though it obviously has life contained within it).
That's rather hard to explain, isn't it? How does non-life give rise to life? One might almost consider it to be evidence of God's existence.
But it couldn't be. You've already told us, there is no such evidence.
Q
Q said: Yes, there is evidence against the notion of a godless universe. At the very least, there are some fundamental matters that science is still utterly powerless to explain.
Can you provide some of this evidence please? I'd be interested in reading it. There are indeed many things that science is yet to explain. That doesn't mean that we need God to fill any gaps in our knowledge. We just have to say that we don't know (yet).
Q said: • The Universe isn’t alive (though it obviously has life contained within it).
That's rather hard to explain, isn't it?
Not really.... Think of it this way. The Earth is basically a big rock in space orbiting the Sun. It's dead - but has a thin layer of life living on it.
As to your question: How does non-life give rise to life? One might almost consider it to be evidence of God's existence.
That'll be the starting point for another Blog in the near future. But in the meantime....
Not long after the Earth became cool enough to support liquid water (about 4.3 Billion years ago IIRC) a chemical 'soup' started to appear. This soup slowly became more complex due to well understood chemical and physical processes... when it reached a certain level of complexity we began to call parts of it 'alive'. That's the 5 cent version. But again, the gaps in our understanding of this process do not mean that we need a God or Creator to explain it.
Q finally said: But it couldn't be. You've already told us, there is no such evidence.
As far as I am aware there IS no evidence for God. This is one of the reasons I don't believe in Him. If you have this evidence I'm more than happy to discuss it with you.
Why? Are we only restrained from being monsters by the fear of God? So what's holding back all the atheists?
No. It can't be the fear of God that restrains people because there are many that don't fear God and if I understand my history, didn't Hitler fear God? It is God's hand upon us. He is still here with us. He didn't abandon us. I have seen the times when man has wanted to leave God's protection and he allowed it. Those times are clearly expressed in the Bible. God said he turned people over to their wicked desires.
THEY desired it and He allowed it. Why? Because He has a purpose. We have not seen anything quite so nasty as the holocaust, yes? But we have come close. There are disgustingly evil leaders demonstarting genecide all the time in Korea and Africa. Why does God allow it? I can't answer that question as I do not have an all knowing perfect will.
Sadie Lou - that's a very neat argument.
In a Universe with God in it everything that happens (or doesn't) only happens due to Gods Will/Grace/Master Plan.
In a Godless Universe anything can happen as God isn't there to prevent/restrain it. Therefore, by extension there will be a general increase in badness.
This is also (of course) an indication that we do indeed live in a God type Universe because things are not as bad as they COULD be.
...and all without a shred of evidence. As I said - neat argument.
• Sadie Lou:
A point of correction: Hitler was not a God-fearing man. In public speeches, early in his time in office, he paid lip service to Christianity because it suited his purposes to do so. In private, however, it was very clear that he utterly despised Christianity.
I'm sure you'll be happy to leave Hitler to the atheists!
• Cyberkitten:
If there is zero evidence for God's existence, why do so many scientists believe in God?:
In the US, according to a survey published in Nature in 1997, four out of 10 scientists believe in God. Just over 45% said they did not believe, and 14.5% described themselves as doubters or agnostics. This ratio of believers to non-believers had not changed in 80 years.
I understand disagreeing with those who believe in God. But do you really think they they believe in God even though there is no evidence whatsoever to support such a belief? Do you really think they're that stupid?!
As for life arising from non-life, what you describe is a vague theory that is, so far, subject to insuperable difficulties. (Yes, I am familiar with the Urey-Miller experiment.)
As you say, it's a topic for another time. But if you see zero evidence for God's existence, your eyes (and, more importantly, your mind) must be closed.
Q
• Sadie Lou:
A point of correction: Hitler was not a God-fearing man. In public speeches, early in his time in office, he paid lip service to Christianity because it suited his purposes to do so. In private, however, it was very clear that he utterly despised Christianity.
I'm sure you'll be happy to leave Hitler to the atheists!
Okay. :)
Cyberkitten--
Like Q said, zero evidence for God's existence? Are you sure about that?
What about testimony? Are you unwilling to believe another person's account of why God is real to them? I have heard story after story of miraculous accounts of God's providence in their lives. An elder at my church had the flesh eating disease and his story about how God got him through the worst pain and suffering you can imagine, is incredible.
Medical science can't explain this stuff. You have doctors and scientists encountering the miraculous all the time--making believers out of skeptics.
We have a pet rock called Fred - I will have to ask him how he feels :-)
IMHO making the universe (or environment) benevolent or malevolent is ascribing human emotions to a (as you say) piece of rock...
cq
Take an evening off to see a rather confused film about the morality of gun-running... and interesting posts get... posted....
Anyway..
Q said: In the US, according to a survey published in Nature in 1997, four out of 10 scientists believe in God.
..and this is proof/evidence of what exactly? Is is evidence that 40% of scientists see no conflict between their religion and their understanding of science or that they are adequate in compartmentalising two (possibly) opposing belief systems. It does not constitute evidence for the existence of God.
Sadie Lou said: What about testimony? Are you unwilling to believe another person's account of why God is real to them?
..again what exactly is this supposed to prove? From what I can tell it shows that certain people believe that their belief in God got them through some bad times. This may indeed be true. However, it is hardly evidence for God's existence.
Q finally said: But if you see zero evidence for God's existence, your eyes (and, more importantly, your mind) must be closed.
Why? I have asked many people to provide me with a single piece of evidence for the existence of God. I am still awaiting an adequate answer.
You don't have to believe in G-d just because I do, but the reverse is true also. You lack of faith doesn't shake mine. I don't believe that we need G-d to be good or moral, but it doesn't hurt.
Jack's Shack said: You lack of faith doesn't shake mine.
I would be very surprised if it did. Our beliefs are part of who we are. Change the beliefs and you change the person. This can either be a slow, gradual thing or a very sudden one (though maybe it only seems sudden from the outside).
What I am hoping for is that after a while we'll both (atheists & theists) understand each others position a bit more... even if we still don't agree with each other....
I have asked many people to provide me with a single piece of evidence for the existence of God. I am still awaiting an adequate answer.
That's what I mean about testimony. They'll tell you that they never could have gotten off drugs or some addiction or through that trial if they hadn't depended on God. Your reply?
I'm still waiting...
I think some people just need to be humbled. They need to hit rock bottom before they'll look up. They will have to be abandoned by everyone else before they will see that God is the only one that will never turn their back. This is why so many people turn to God in a trial. This is why churches do prison ministries and intensive care units in hospitals...
...people come to a place where their problems are bigger than themselves and bigger than their friends and family.
Sadie Lou said: That's what I mean about testimony. They'll tell you that they never could have gotten off drugs or some addiction or through that trial if they hadn't depended on God. Your reply?
I'm still waiting...
I did reply -
Sadie Lou said: What about testimony? Are you unwilling to believe another person's account of why God is real to them?
..again what exactly is this supposed to prove? From what I can tell it shows that certain people believe that their belief in God got them through some bad times. This may indeed be true. However, it is hardly evidence for God's existence.
I'm not denying that people can have what they perceive as 'religious experiences' but I am questioning just what these experiences actually mean....
Sadie also said: I think some people just need to be humbled. They need to hit rock bottom before they'll look up.
Are you suggesting that I don't believe in God because I haven't suffered enough? I find that a rather strange thing to say...
Sadie also said: I think some people just need to be humbled. They need to hit rock bottom before they'll look up.
I did say "some". Some people don't need to be humbled. Some people were born with an affliction and they come to God just as a means to survive. Some people see God in music or nature and they are compelled to believe. Like I said, some people are so arrogant or headstrong or born into affluence, that they need a shake down to believe.
you say that testimony doesn't make a case for Christianity. Okay fine. How does anyone make a case for anything then? How does our court system even function if we can't believe the testimony of others? How do we even know that history is what it was if it wasn't for someone's testimony of how it happened?
You count on testimony all day long as concrete evidence of something and yet the testimony of God and someone's "religious experience" counts for nothing?
Cyberkitten, you either ignored or accidentally missed my point. That 40% of scientists believe in God does not, in itself, constitute evidence of God's existence. I agree; I never said otherwise.
But it suggests that your contention, that there is zero evidence of God's existence, is nonsense.
These are scientists. Scientists are trained to make decisions based on evidence. In your opinion, are these scientists so stupid, so incompetent in the ways of science, that they believe in God despite the absence of any evidence to support such a belief?!!!
How do you maintain that there is *no* evidence of God's existence when 40% of scientists believe in God?
Q
Q said: How do you maintain that there is *no* evidence of God's existence when 40% of scientists believe in God?
Why should it?
Apparently 6 Million Americans believe that they have been abducted by Aliens. Is this proof that Aliens are amongst us 'probing' at their will? I hazard a guess and so no.
Just because a significant percentage of scientists (are they particularly astute at deciding on religious issues I wonder) say they believe in God goes no way at all towards proof that God exists. Many millions of non-scientists believe the same (in fact the overwhelming majority of people believe in some kind of divine being). But why should this sway me? Throughout history people have believed many things that were later shown to be false. Why should this be any different?
Sadie Lou said: How does our court system even function if we can't believe the testimony of others? How do we even know that history is what it was if it wasn't for someone's testimony of how it happened?
The courts (and historians) do take testimony into account but they do not rely on it totally. Can you imagine a case in court being decided on witness testimony alone? Would it be decided on who had the best story or would it more likely be decided on.... evidence? Personal accounts of historical incidents are indeed important - but how can you decide what actually happened... that's right... evidence.
That's why we have things like forensics & archeology. Physical evidence has a wonderful way of deciding on important issues.
cyberkitten, let me ask you: Do you love your family?
Saide Lou said: cyberkitten, let me ask you: Do you love your family?
Well... apart from the fact that this is a particularly personal question - and I can't see how it fits into the discussion we're having....
My answer would have to be: Some more than others.
Why?
prove it.
Sadie Lou said: prove it.
Well, (chuckle) I WAS expecting a bit more than that from you....
How exactly do you expect me to prove it to you? How exactly does your challenge relate to the idea of an uncaring Universe?
You said:Personal accounts of historical incidents are indeed important - but how can you decide what actually happened... that's right... evidence.
That's why we have things like forensics & archeology. Physical evidence has a wonderful way of deciding on important issues.
If for some reason, your love for your (certain members) family came into question and you had to prove your love...how would you go about doing it?
Pretend you're in court in front of a jury full of skeptics.
Would you go up on the stand and profess your love?
Would you put your family members on the stand and have them testify how much they "feel" loved by you?
Would you submit any physical evidence, and if so, what?
Love letters? How do we know you wrote them?
Birthday cards? Did you feel obligated to write them?
photographs of you with your family, smiling--looks can be deceiving.
I'm just curious how you would go about proving your love for your family.
Sadie Lou said: I'm just curious how you would go about proving your love for your family.
I think you pretty much nailed it in your post. It'd be a combination of testimony (from both sides) plus various forms of hard evidence.
Where exactly are you going with this? The difficulty of producing evidence agreable to all sides? The issue of trust?
To prove any assertion you need argument and evidence. Argument on its own is rarely enough - and the evidence for any radical assertion needs to be equally radically compelling.
Can you show me a single piece of evidence or an equally compelling argument for the existence of God in the Universe? After all... that's the root of the question being discussed here.
but my point with proving your love for your family is exactly how Christians go about proving God to unbelievers. We have testimony and various forms of hard evidence. Just because you don't trust testimony and just because you don't think our hard evidence meets your standards, doesn't mean the argument for Christ is null and void.
You can argue all day about how much you love your family and at the end of it all I can still say, Sorry--not good enough.
That doesn't make it any less true, does it?
Sadie Lou said: We have testimony and various forms of hard evidence.
I must have missed the hard evidence. What was it again?
Sadie Lou said: Just because you don't trust testimony and just because you don't think our hard evidence meets your standards, doesn't mean the argument for Christ is null and void.
Well - it IS as far as I am concerned and that's all I really can say. The evidence is enough for you - and you are convinced. It's isn't for me & I'm not.
Where do we go from here? Is there anywhere TO go?
I guess not.
Maybe we'll have another crack at it next time I post something on Religion...
...sounds like a plan. :)
But the rock is a non-living thing!! It doesn't prove that the rest of the world is not out to get me!!
Ok, I get your point, nice one.
Post a Comment