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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Sunday, February 19, 2006

Books @ my Bedside: God's Funeral by A.N. Wilson

It is extraordinary that in the century that witnessed the greatest period of church-building in human history, the mass revivals of the Evangelicals and the Anglo-Catholics and the founding of missionary societies to convert the heathen should also have been the period when atheism went from being an esoteric and secretive persuasion to being the religion of the suburbs. By the end of the 19th century the great mass of thinking men and women had come to abandon the religion which, for at least a millennium, had dominated the British Isles. A.N. Wilson follows up his sensational biographies of Jesus and Paul with this fascinating account of the lives and ideas of those prominent men and women who, to differing degrees and for many different reasons, felt that they could not number themselves among the Christian faithful. Starting with the works of Hume and Gibbon, Wilson introduces us to the eccentric utilitarianism of Jeremy Bentham, the agonising doubts of Carlyle, the revolutionary atheism of Marx and the militant defence of unbelief by Huxley. Lyell, Darwin, Freud, George Eliot, Hardy--the list covers what seems like most of the great minds of the century. Wilson's wit, warmth and erudition make God's Funeral enthralling throughout and this reviewer would strongly recommend it to people of all shades of belief. --Douglas Pretsell

[This started out as a bedtime read but quickly moved into my living room as an evening read. The book told the story (in sometimes too much detail I admit) of the rise of English Atheism during the 19th Century. I found it interesting to see the struggles, both intellectual and social, of Great Men and Women against the then accepted truth of Christianity. A must read for anyone concerned with the opposition between reason and faith.]

11 comments:

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: So, who's right, a scientist (the Dean of Letters) who's a Christian who says that faith and science are compatible or Richard Dawkins, a scientist and atheist, who says that they're not ?

I'm with Richard on this one.

freethoughtmom said: (found you via the Jewish Atheist)

Welcome. I hope you stick around...

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: Prof. Dawkins and other atheists that I have heard or read seem to make their case by misrepresenting faiths or simply misunderstanding what they are about. So much so that I really do not know what they are worried about.

I think the problem, and the conflict, between religion and science arises when a religious belief in, for example, a Young Earth is put forward. Such an idea obviously clashes with the scientific understanding of the age of the Earth. This is one of many instances where the two world views will clash. As far as I am concerned when faith and science clash - science will pretty much always win.

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: The vast bulk of Christians do not believe in the "young earth".

Indeed. I agree with you - which is why most belivers have no problem with science. Many people who believe in God have no problem with evolution... even completely unguided evolution. Science & Faith do not necessarily have to conflict.

It's only when belivers hold articles of faith that are contrary to actual knowledge that you get problems - but I think this leads rather inevitably (at least in some peoples minds) to the 'God of the Gaps' idea where God is used to explain the things that science cannot. The danger in this (for Theists) is that as science advances, and the gaps close, then God is eventually squeezed out of existence.

uberchap also said: Atheists seem to make their case on misinformation or misunderstanding.

What do you mean by 'their case'..? Do you mean the case for Gods non-existence?

CyberKitten said...

uberchap - There is a huge opportunity for atheists and theists to misunderstand each other. Part of the reason I started this Blog was to try and get my head around (if not inside) a theistic world view. So far I have singularly failed.

However, it seems that the misunderstanding cuts both ways (as you would expect). As far as I know few atheists are out to disprove the existence of God - if such a thing was even possible. They are simply non-believers... as am I on my good days. Others may certainly dispute the existence of God.. as I often do... but I'm not sure of many who actually go out of their ways to prove He doesn't exist.

I agree with you that a 'God of the Gaps' argument is a rather weak & pointless one - for the reasons we have both mentioned.

My particular atheist rests on two things:

Lack of any evidence for the existence of God and

Lack of a reason for Gods existence.

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: If you're looking for proof then you will not find it. Faith is belief without proof.

Unfortunately I'm not built that way. I don't 'do' faith. It's not in my make-up.

uberchap also said: As for a reason ? God does not need a "reason" he exists whether he (or she; actually, the sex is irrelevent) is acknowledged or not.

God may not need a 'reason' to exist - but I need a (very good) reason to believe He exists. I have yet to be aquainted with that reason.

Finally uberchap said: He may mean nothing to you but that does not deny his existence. What is there not to understand ?

I'm not denying His existence (at least not here) I'm saying that I do not believe He exists. He may indeed exist but I personally do not believe it. As you said before: "If you're looking for proof then you will not find it" - if that is the case then I will never believe in him.

As to what I don't understand... I don't understand how people can whole heartedly believe in something without any evidence at all & let that belief guide their lives. I find it virtually incomprehensible. I guess that I'm just not 'wired' that way.

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: I think that we all "do" faith in one way or another. It's just faith in God that sticks in some people's craw.

The first part is kind of true. I have 'faith' that the bus company I use everyday has trained its drivers to drive safely.. etc.. etc.. Yet....

Faith in God doesn't 'stick in my craw'. I just don't see it. I'm not 'rejecting' God per se. I see no God to reject. To me putting your faith in God is like putting your faith in fairies or the Easter Bunny. It makes just as much sense (to me).

uberchap also said: Do you know anyone who has a faith; and if so, how do you see their lives being guided in a way that seems counter intuitive?

I know at least one person who has faith - funnily she regained it by talking to me [grin]. I'm not sure what you mean by your question though: "how do you see their lives being guided in a way that seems counter intuitive". I have no idea what their internal dialogue is. I don't know how they make their decisions about things. So how would I know if their lives are 'counter intuitive' - whatever you mean by that..

Finally uberchap said: The people I know of faith do not do anything outlandish and neither do they seem to be puppets of their God.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'outlandish' behaviour. From an athiest point of view it could be said that worshiping God is fairly outlandish in itself. As to being puppets - I've certainly come across several people who consider that their whole lives are directed by the will of God - isn't that puppet-ish?

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: So despite the holy texts, the millions of faithful around the world who would testify to prayers being answered, you see no evidence for the existence of God.

Yes. Holy texts are no evidence for God. Belief in God (no matter how many people believe) is no proof for the existence of God. Belief that prayers have been answered is no proof for the existence of God.

Uberchap said: So, are all of the above deluded; because many of them are a lot brighter than me and maybe even you!

I'm pretty sure that there are MANY people out there who are more intelligent than me. However, yes. I do think they are deluded. See my Oct 21st post 'The Grand Illusion'

Finally uberchap said: On a related matter, do you believe that there may be other life forms in the universe ?

Yes. There are probably other life forms in our Solar System & pretty much definitely in the Galaxy. Why do you ask?

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: Enough of this. What I'm really interested in is why you believe in extra terrestial life.

Evidence please !

I certainly believe in the probability of extra-terrestrial life and would be rather surprised if we never find any.

ATM we only have one example of a planet with life to work from but..

The Earth is less than 5 billion years old. The Universe is three times that so there's been LOTS of time for life to evolve elsewhere.

There are billions of stars in our galaxy and billions of galaxies. In our very short exploration of nearby space we've found over a hundred stars with planets orbiting them. Planets appear common.

It is likely that a percentage of worlds have the right conditions for life to emerge. Going from our single example of Earth it seems that life appears pretty much as soon as it can.

Therefore it is logical to assume that there is probably life somewhere else in our galaxy at least.

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: That's all supposition based on probability and assumption. You have not offered any evidence to support your view that extra terrestial life exists.

There *is* no evidence that alien life exists. Because we haven't found any yet. But I certainly think that its highly probable that it does. There is certainly a LOT more circumstantial evidence and logic in that belief than in the belief in God.

But anyway.... the question I had the feeling that you where in fact leading up to:

uberchap asked: Could God be a super intelligent extra-terrestial?

To which I respond:

What do you mean by God in this context?

CyberKitten said...

uberchap said: So, what's your evidence for belief in alien life, apart from probability based upon the size and age of the universe. What circumstantial evidence can you cite?

As I've said several times... there is a probability of extra terrestrial life based on what we know about life on Earth and about the composition of the Universe at large. I have already pointed to the circumstantial evidence. I'm not exactly sure what else you expect of me.

uberchap said: I was just taking a chance that you may have a belief in something that is difficult to prove.

It's not difficult to prove (at least not *that* difficult. ATM we have no evidence that life exists in our Universe other than Earth. But if we do find some - well, there's your evidence. Proof. But there is a reasonable belief (know what we do etc..) that it is out there... somewhere.

uberchap said: The God may be an alien remark was just a tease. But it is still probable is it not bearing in mind the size and age of the universe?

What do you mean by God in this context? Do you mean passing aliens might have seeded the Earth? Sure. It might also have been a comet... or spontaneous generation or a million other things. But what is most likely...? What can be shown to have (probably) happened? If we find Earth type DNA on other worlds it might give some credence to the seeding idea... but we'll just have to wait & see.

CyberKitten said...

uberchap asked: Please can you quote some circumstantial evidence for belief in extra terrestrial life.

The Earth is less than 5 billion years old. The Universe is three times that so there's been LOTS of time for life to evolve elsewhere.

There are billions of stars in our galaxy and billions of galaxies. In our very short exploration of nearby space we've found over a hundred stars with planets orbiting them. Planets appear common.

It is likely that a percentage of worlds have the right conditions for life to emerge. Going from our single example of Earth it seems that life appears pretty much as soon as it can.

Therefore it is logical to assume that there is probably life somewhere else in our galaxy at least.