Archbishop rejects mystery mania
From the BBC - 16 April 2006
Conspiracy theories or the discovery of ancient texts will not weaken the Gospel, the Archbishop of Canterbury will say in his Easter Sunday sermon. The Gospel of Judas and the Da Vinci Code foster a sense of mystery, but the Easter message lives in Christian experience, Dr Rowan Williams will say. Many Christians are putting their lives at risk for their faith, he adds. Meanwhile, Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu has baptised four adults in a pool outside a York church. Seventeen others were also confirmed in the service, aired on Radio 4. The truth of the Resurrection is strengthened by Christian experience across the globe, Dr Rowan Williams will say in his sermon at Canterbury Cathedral.
"The Bible is not the authorised code of a society managed by priests and preachers for their private purposes, but the set of human words through which the call of God is still uniquely immediate to human beings today; human words with divine energy behind them. There are places in our world where conversion to Christianity is literally a matter of putting your life on the line. We have all been following the story of Abdul Rahman in Afghanistan and we know that his story is not unique," he says - referring to the Afghan who was threatened with death for converting to Christianity.
"We can say with absolute certainty that whatever the Gospel means in circumstances like that, it isn't a cover-up for the sake of the powerful." The Da Vinci Code has sold more than 40 million copies worldwide and has been made into a film starring Tom Hanks. It alleges the Church suppressed the "truth" that Jesus had a child with Mary Magdalene, and this bloodline was the real Holy Grail. The Gospel of Judas, a papyrus document from the 3rd or 4th Century AD, casts the fallen disciple as a benevolent figure, helping Jesus to save mankind.
22 comments:
Heresy. All of it.
It always surprises me that people, who cannot prove that God does not exist, will go out of their way to piss God off. You would think that because there is no proof that God does not exist, people would, in the very least, be careful what they say. You can live your life as someone who does not believe but why tempt God ( if indeed he DOES exist) to punish you harshly by spouting off heretical crap like the Da Vinci Code and equally ridiculous, the Gospel of Judas? It's so confusing.
Cyberkitten, as someone who sincerely believes that God does not exist, can you help me understand why some people get extreme about their disbelief and actually commit serious offenses against God?
Sadie Lou asked: Cyberkitten, as someone who sincerely believes that God does not exist, can you help me understand why some people get extreme about their disbelief and actually commit serious offenses against God?
I think you've answered your own question. If these people honestly don't believe in God then they are committing offence against no one - except, of course, those that *do* believe. There will also be those who feel that they have something to prove by 'thumbing their noses at God' - a bit like throwing rocks at crocodiles.. a sort of macho thing.
But there have been many heresies from inside the Church... probably too many to count. When doctrine is important.. and disagrements arise (rather inevitably) then heresy follows... and there is even the faint possibility that some aspects of it might actually be true. It's difficult to tell.
I'm actually not 100% convinced that Jesus was an actual historical figure... never mind the Son of God.
I'm actually not 100% convinced that Jesus was an actual historical figure... never mind the Son of God.
Okay. So let's say you don't even believe Jesus walked a step on this earth. You can't prove it.
So there is still a possibility that he did, indeed, exist. Greater still is the possibility that he was the Son of God. You can't prove he wasn't.
So with the possibility hanging over your head that it's possible, why in the world would you go so far as to insult God by making wild claims about him?
It's just so weird.
not 'you' personally but non believers in general.
Sadie, I think you're basically talking about a variation of Pascal's Wager.
Basically (IIRC) he said that the danger of NOT believing in God is so great that even if His existence is unlikely then it still makes sense to believe in Him just in case. Personally I think that's just the attitude of a coward. If a person has any convictions s/he should stand up for them.
There is also the thought that if God is forgiveness personified... then he would forgive any trespasses against Him.
As to proof.. I certainly can't prove that God does not exist.. I have no absolute proof that Jesus did not exist as a historical character, nor that he was or was not the Son of God... but personally I'm not willing to hedge my bets on the off chance.
Dan Browns book (in particular) is largely bringing a well known heresy to a (much) wider public. There's actually very little 'invention' in his book... other than tying things together & actually inventing a fictional conspiracy to supress the idea.
I can't prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist either but I'm not afraid to risk angering him by suggesting that he (or she) doesn't. :-)
Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, etc. were all heretics. Should we discount their discoveries?
There is also the thought that if God is forgiveness personified... then he would forgive any trespasses against Him.
I don't know about you, cyberkitten, but it's pretty pointless to "forgive" someone that doesn't even believe they have done anything to be forgiven of.
I don't think you are understanding my question.
I'm not saying that the possibility of God's existance is reason enough to believe. I'm saying that you should not believe if that's your conviction but why go to the extreme and dig yourself a deep hole?
Why make fun of God and go out of your way to offend him?
dback--
The Easter Bunny is hardly in charge of your eternal security.
:)
and the Da Vinci Code and Judas' Gospel are hardly, "discoveries".
Sadie said,
"The Easter Bunny is hardly in charge of your eternal security.
:)
and the Da Vinci Code and Judas' Gospel are hardly, "discoveries"."
The Easter Bunny is just as much in charge of my eternal security as God is. He-he.
The Da Vinci Code isn't meant as a "discovery". It's a thriller that incorporates some popular theories. That's it.
And it's up for debate whether Judas' Gospel can be considered a discovery. From every indication, it is authentic. But I envision it not really changing any Christian's mind. I don't think that's the goal of the people that brought it out. It's an archaelogical find. It's meant to say more about the history of man than the history of God.
. From every indication, it is authentic.
Yes, an authentic fraud. Hooray. It's like celebrating the discovery of the easter bunny's journal.
"Dear Diary,
Today, I don't really feel like hiding eggs. I feel rather like staying home and roasting Peeps over the Webber in the backyard. Nobody appreciates me."
...not that Judas is fictinal--but this "gospel" was written by the Gnostics--not Judas.
Sadie Lou said: I don't know about you, cyberkitten, but it's pretty pointless to "forgive" someone that doesn't even believe they have done anything to be forgiven of.
Surely God would forgive people who exercise Free Will (that He gave them) to chose not to believe in Him? Also, if everything is part of God's plan... then so are the atheists....
Sadie also said: I'm saying that you should not believe if that's your conviction but why go to the extreme and dig yourself a deep hole?
I suppose that's the difference between passive non-belief & active non-belief. Isn't it like Christians who talk about their beliefs to others? Atheists too can point out the 'error' of other peoples ways. They have no fear of God's retribution - because they don't believe that such a thing is possible. They see Christianity as a (wrong) idea, nothing more. There is no 'hole' for them to dig from their perspective.
Surely God would forgive people who exercise Free Will (that He gave them) to chose not to believe in Him?
You can't be serious. Or, maybe you are--I suppose it's possible. I guess I have to be the one to point out to you that, no, there is no forgiveness for people who refuse to believe in Him and His method of salvation (Christ). I'm not sure what His plan is for people who have never heard the gospel.
I still don't think you understand what I'm saying. Perhaps an example?
Pretend that I happen upon an island on my travels. On this island, the natives believe in Zukko; their god.
I can fully disbelieve Zukko is what the natives say he is. What I would NOT do is actively shake my fist at Zukko and call Zukko names. I would not make up false stories about Zukko.
Now, on a realistic level, we are not talking about Zukko that a handful of natives believe in.
We are talking about the God of the Bible. The possibility that God is real and has a real 'plan' for your life and a real salvation message that you have heard before--is something that I would not 'mess' with if I was a non believer.
Better?
That there is "the possibility that God is real and has a real 'plan' for your life and a real salvation message ..." would not occur to us if we are non-believers. To be worried about that already presupposes that we have belief.
"Why make fun of God and go out of your way to offend him?" -- again this presupposes a belief. For non-believers, there is no "him" to offend. And I think you think that the Da Vinci Code and Gospel of Judas are making fun of God. Suggesting that there is another possiblity is not "making fun".
Would you lose sleep over the fact that many of your statements and beliefs are personally offensive to Hindus or Muslims? Are you worried that if you are wrong, you are not going to viewed favorably by their gods? Are you going to change what you do and say and believe just so that you can hedge your bets just in case? That is what you are asking us to do.
Sadie - sorry i'm late to the discussion again - I've been away playing over easter:-)
Why would you not argue with the Zukko believers & deliberately try to subvert his message? Out of respect for the natives? But isn't it your responsibility to spread the true word of god?
how about if Zukko called for regular human sacrifice - would you shake your fist in his face then, or would you comply because yo can't prove he doesn't exist?
Or if Zukko dictated that all women must wear 7inch heels all the time? To you that would just be silly, painful and unhealthy. to Zukko believers that would be an absolute way of life. Would you do it? Would you suggest to them that it's not ncessary? would you point out the damage they are causing themselves?
Would you be a better person in your own eyes by allowing their misguided beliefs & actions to continue unquestioned, or to introduce a heresy into their religion?
That's why (some) atheists thumb thier noses at god, the bible & religious morals/laws & beliefs. because they honestly believe they are wrong, dangerous & immoral!
Wow! As usual, a very interesting discussion. I'm impressed with all your civil discourse on the topic and impressed that Sadie stands alone with her point of view but holds up very well under the pressure. :-) I've just started reading The Da Vinci Code so I can't add anything about the book's intent, as for the God argument, I think you've all covered that very well and then some. *back to lurking in the shadows*
I am failing at my point. You are all making great points IF I was saying something else but what I'm trying to say is not getting across.
You cannot prove that God does not exist.
You have faith that he does not; a strong faith.
That being said, I find it to be strange that with the possiblity that you are wrong about God looming over your heads--some unbelievers even go as far as to 'make up' stories about God and His Son.
I find that to be quite daring considering the fact that none of you KNOW that God is does not exist.
My example with Zukko was well challenged by Mrs. Aginoth. However, there is a difference between arguing against Zukko's commands and making crap up about him.
See?
I'm not suggesting that atheists should not argue against God's commands, I'm sure God expects that and allows it--what I don't think God is tolerent of is making up untruths about Him and calling Him names or making fun of His believers.
All of those things I would not do even if I was 100% sure he did not exist (because if I was 100% sure--I would be delusional to a digree).
Sadie... we are definitely misunderstanding each other.
I personally do not know for a 100% fact that God does not exist. However, I *strongly* believe that he does not. I also strongly believe that ghosts do not exist, nor abducting aliens or elves or any other mythical creature. I fail to understand why I should be afraid of, respect, take into account or otherwise modify my behaviour in regard to a fantasy creature.
Do you take into account the wishes of ancient Greek, Roman or Egyptian Gods in your daily life? Would you refuse to bad mouth Zeus or Anubis on the off chance that they are listening and would punish you for your transgression against them? Of course not.
Why should I (or any atheist) take into account the wishes or demands of something we have no belief in? That just doesn't make any sense to me. To live a life in fear, awe or anything else of God wouldn't make me an atheist - it would make me a theist (which I'm not).
*experiencing communication problems*
You said yourself you are not 100% sure God does not exist.
but then you say,
I fail to understand why I should be afraid of, respect, take into account or otherwise modify my behaviour in regard to a fantasy creature.
Fantasy=Hobbits, elves, fairies, etc.
I am not afraid of elves, gobblins--whatever else because I am 100% sure they don't exist.
You are not 100% sure God does not exist so he's not on that "fantasy" level you keep putting on.
I'm not saying that by respecting God you are admitting his existance--I'm saying that if you don't know if He's real or not--why would you make up crap about him and go extreme with your disbelief?
That sounds more fruity and screwed up than anything you accuse Christians of being.
Sadie Lou said: You are not 100% sure God does not exist so he's not on that "fantasy" level you keep putting on.
Not for you no. But if I'm 99% or even 98% certain....?? For me God is certainly up their with myths of fairies & elves...
Why are you SO certain elves don't exist? There's plenty of ancient texts about them - and even eye witness testimony...
Sadie Lou also asked: I'm not saying that by respecting God you are admitting his existance..
Interesting. How can I respect something without admitting its existence? Surely there must be something that is being respected? I can certainly respect your *belief* in God without believing in Him myself.. but can I respect God without believing in Him?
Also, if you think about it... a heresy usually originates *inside* a religion. Remember that back in the day there *was* only one religion in the West - Roman Catholicism. It was only after the Reformation (and the Hundred Years War that followed) that the Protestant Heresy emerged. Both sides of the Church have been splintering ever since. I'm sure that various sects on all sides regard the others as heretics.
It seems that just about everyone is "making up crap" about God.
It seems that just about everyone is "making up crap" about God.
That much is true for sure. Look at some of the big religious movers and shakers here in the States.
Sheesh!
Pat Robertson?
Jerry Falwell?
Pahleeze.
Anyhoo,
I suppose I will relent and leave you to your God Fantasy and I will remain a staunch believer. It was a fun conversation but one that I foresee no natural end or conclusion--until the next time, of course.
*wink*
Sadie Lou said: It was a fun conversation but one that I foresee no natural end or conclusion--until the next time, of course.
Fun indeed. I look forward to it.
Post a Comment