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Monday, April 30, 2007

Crucifixion makes God seem like a psychopath, says cleric

By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent for The Telegraph

05/04/2007

One of the country's most controversial clerics was at the centre of a new controversy yesterday after saying that traditional teaching about the Crucifixion was "repulsive" and made God seem like a "psychopath".

The Dean of St Albans, the Very Rev Jeffrey John, used a Lent talk on BBC Radio 4 last night to attack the Christian theory of penal substitution, which argues that God sent Christ into the world to be punished for the sins of mankind. The dean's comments in the run-up to Easter were met with outrage from leading evangelicals who said his comments verged on the heretical, even though he attempted to soften his message by adding extra lines on the eve of the broadcast.

Dr John, who was forced to stand down as Bishop of Reading in 2003 after it emerged he was homosexual, although no longer sexually active, said he had been taught that Jesus "took the rap" for our sins, but we got forgiven provided we said we believed in him." But even at the age of 10, he had thought this particular explanation for the Crucifixion was "pretty repulsive as well as nonsensical."

"What sort of God was this, getting so angry with the world and the people he created and then, to calm himself down, demanding the blood of his own son?" Dr John said. "And anyway, why should God forgive us through punishing somebody else? It was worse than illogical, it was insane. It made God sound like a psychopath. If any human being behaved like this, we would say they were a monster. Well, I haven't changed my mind since. That explanation of the cross just doesn't work but sadly, it's one that's still all too often preached."

A BBC spokesman said that the dean, reacting to criticism, had added two extra lines to "pre-empt any further misunderstanding or misinterpretation". One of the lines was: "On the cross Jesus died for our sins; the price of our sin is paid; but it is not paid to God but by God." Fellow liberals defended his view, saying that a key difference between them and conservative evangelicals was their view of God. The Rev Giles Frasier, the vicar of Putney in south London, said: "What is at the heart of salvation, punishment or love? Liberals, like myself, believe it is love." Evangelicals were furious, however, and the row will fuel their growing discontent with the liberal wing of the Church. A number said yesterday that Dr John's comments showed how unsuitable he would have been as a bishop, regardless of his homosexuality.

In a statement, the Bishop of Lewes, the Rt Rev Wallace Benn, and the Bishop of Willeseden, the Rt Rev Pete Broadbent, said: "Jeffrey John is saying that the cross is not about anger or wrath or sin or atonement, but only about God's unconditional love. There is, he says, nothing to understand in the cross which is anything to do with sacrifice or Jesus dying for our sins - and we say, No. You've got it wrong." Bishop Broadbent said: "Of course there are some very raw discussions amongst Christians about quite how Jesus died in our place and what that meant and how He suffered for our sins. But to ignore the entirety of the language about atonement and sacrifice and the cross is to nullify the message of what Good Friday and Jesus dying for us is all about. Jesus Christ is sacrificed and he washes away the sins of the whole world and he completes the understanding of Scripture and fulfils it in a completely new way."

He added that he was disappointed that the BBC was using its schedules to undermine the message of Easter. "You cannot read the Old Testament and New Testament and blank out an entirety of language and concept and understanding that means that we are guilty sinners, we need our sins to be paid for and we need Jesus Christ to die for us. That is what the Creeds say, it is what the Bible says and you cannot rewrite them. You cannot understand Jesus Christ without understanding Old Testament atonement material." Bishop Benn added that "the truth that Jesus died as our sin-bearing substitute carrying the punishment for our sins on the cross is the glorious heart of the Gospel. It displays the love of God: Father, Son and Spirit, for us.”

"To deny or vilify that is a tragic denial of the power and heart of the Gospel. I hope Jeffrey John will speedily reconsider and repent of his attack on apostolic Christianity." A spokesman for the BBC said: "Lent Talks are short individual authored opinions in which the contributor is invited to reflect on a different part of Christ's passion. There will be those who agree with the points being made and those who disagree. They are a reflection of ongoing debates within the Church."

[So... It's not just me then...............?]

15 comments:

Sadie Lou said...

The Rev Giles Frasier, the vicar of Putney in south London, said: "What is at the heart of salvation, punishment or love? Liberals, like myself, believe it is love."

Yeah? Well that's totally lopsided and horribly flawed. If God is love, what happenes when God's "people" suffer from horrible circumstances? Does God not *love* them anymore? Ridiculous and bordering on heresey, yes.

Read my new book review: kind of touches on this subject.

CyberKitten said...

But I thought that the message of Jesus was that "God is Love"....?

As to the problem of suffering... Isn't that the whole 'Problem of Evil' deal. It's an old argument I know but a classic in every sense is it not? The existence of Evil/Suffering in the world is something that Christians must surely struggle with from time to time...

Sadie Lou said...

I have gone over this so many times...
It's okay though. I've come to realize that this good vs. evil thing is what hangs most people up. It never was an issue for me.
The message of Jesus is a double edged sword. On one hand, the cross is love, mercy, grace, redemption. On the other hand, it's violent, ugly--a picture of God's wrath, judgment, punishment. Sin is ugly. I see it every, single day. All you have to do is listen to the news stories of each day and see sin manifested. We live in a FALLEN state. The hope of each Christian is that Jesus is coming back to redeem the earth.
He already came to die and pay for our sins and then he's coming again to reclaim the earth for his kingdom.
I know that all sounds like a bunch of hoopla to the unbeliever but your worldview sounds pathetic and sad to me. I *know* because I used to be an unbeliever.
In that book I read, something seriously awful happens to this Jesuit preist. He's on this mission to another planet and he believes that he is being sent there by God. But then what happens is so unbearable and *wrong* that this Father is left to question his faith--why did God allow these things to happen? And if God isn't there, the only person to blame would be himself and he is utterly alone. With God--all things are done in accord with God's perfect will. Even the horrible, wretched events in our lives, God can use for good.
Don't mistake me, God is not forcing our hands against each other--we sin against each other and there is nobody to blame but ourselves but God can take the wretched and make it Good.
Without that hope--What would be the point of bringing children into this ugliness?
What would be the point of surviving?
Despite your notion of eveolution, things are getting worse here on earth, not better.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie said: I have gone over this so many times... It's okay though.

Unfortunately its a perenial question - so its bound to come up a lot. I get pretty bored answering the same questions over & over about atheism too.

Sadie said: I know that all sounds like a bunch of hoopla to the unbeliever but your worldview sounds pathetic and sad to me. I *know* because I used to be an unbeliever.

Yup. Sounds like a 'bunch of hoopla' to me. Personally I don't think that my worldview is either pathetic or sad - though thanks for that comment [grin]. I could just as easily say that your worldview is delusional... but I won't [chuckle].

I understand that you used to be an unbeliever. It obviously didn't work for you (and doesn't seem to work for the majority of people.) But that doesn't make it wrong headed (or sad).

Sadie asked: Without that hope--What would be the point of bringing children into this ugliness?

There is always hope for a better future. Today is much better for many people than 100 years ago. Its probably that the future will generally speaking be better for many people too. Many things improve over time...and not everything about the world is ugly. We have to look with better eyes than that. If you want to look for ugliness you will find it but there is much to admire and be thankful for too.

Sadie asked: What would be the point of surviving?

Life is simply worth living (for the vast majority of people) without what I consider the fantasy of an afterlife. There is much to do and only a short time to do it in. We have a whole planet and 6 Billion people to interact with. If you think that atheists cannot have a meaningful life then why don't we commit suicide on mass? Simple. For me in particular I have good friends, a job, money in the bank and lots to look forward to. I am not alone in this. Life is not pointless without God their to offer us 'hope' of a better one to come.

Sadie said: Despite your notion of evolution, things are getting worse here on earth, not better.

I'm not sure what evolution has got to do with what I think you mean. Sure some things are bad but some things are good too. I certainly don't think that things are 'getting worse'. Most certainly not on a Global scale... I'm more of an optimist (or realist?) than that.

Juggling Mother said...

Sadie Lou said

Sin is ugly. I see it every, single day"

What a sad way to live your life, and a truely awful way to look at the world around you. When I look at the people around me I see goodness, philanthropy, charity, love and helpfulness all around me. I do not deny there are bad things happening, but I do not see that ther are mostly bad people! You need to look at the world with different eyes.

"What would be the point of bringing children into this ugliness? What would be the point of surviving?"

To live, to improve the world for the next generation, to be remebered, to make a difference, to continue the human race.... Many reasons:-)

"Despite your notion of eveolution, things are getting worse here on earth, not better."

Really? How are they getting worse? Consider infant mortality rate, life span, medical knowledge/sickness, personal freedoms, personal security, opportunities...... would you really rather have lived 100 years ago? 500 years ago? 2000 years ago? WHY???!!!

Skywolf said...

It's not just you, CK. The Crucifixion hasn't made sense to me for a long time now. I'm not sure if it ever really did, actually, or if it was simply a case of believing it because I'd heard the phrase 'Jesus died for our sins' infinite times.

It wasn't until very recently that I realised that the ancient Jewish laws called for an animal sacrifice to make up for sins committed. So a lamb would be killed before God in order to atone for a wrong done. In this way, Jesus' death paralleled this, and was supposedly taken as one huge sacrifice that would automatically atone for all sins in future. But do Christians today accept that ancient Jews are equally saved from sin through the animal sacrifices they made prior to Jesus' arrival?

To me, brutally killing something is as much a 'sin' as whatever the person may have been atoning for. What about the Romans who actually carried out the Crucifixion? Were they saved from sin by committing a sin? How does that make sense?

I just have trouble with the concept on so many levels. Does a loving, just, personal God ask for blood in exchange for forgiveness for a wrong done? Christians would say that no, he doesn't anymore, thanks to Christ. But they would have to acknowledge that he demanded such blood for millennia before Christ. And then he needed the blood of his own son (or himself... but the Trinity is a whole other debate) in exchange for all the future sins? Christians are still trading on spilt blood to undo their wrongs in the eyes of God. I'm afraid that's something I'll never be able to get my head around.

Laura said...

Stop trying to explain it and just swallow it. Mere mortals can never understand the true intentions of God.

Sadie Lou said...

Yup. Sounds like a 'bunch of hoopla' to me. Personally I don't think that my worldview is either pathetic or sad - though thanks for that comment [grin]. I could just as easily say that your worldview is delusional... but I won't [chuckle].


Well, with me being delusional and you being pathetic--it's wonder either of us is happy.
:)


I understand that you used to be an unbeliever. It obviously didn't work for you (and doesn't seem to work for the majority of people.) But that doesn't make it wrong headed (or sad).


It's not that it didn't work for me--it supported my lifestyle very nicely. It was the gospel that changed my life. I wanted to know more about God--the cross--and righteousness.




There is always hope for a better future. Today is much better for many people than 100 years ago. Its probably that the future will generally speaking be better for many people too. Many things improve over time...and not everything about the world is ugly. We have to look with better eyes than that. If you want to look for ugliness you will find it but there is much to admire and be thankful for too.


Now you're sounding like a theist! *laughing* I don't have to look for ugliness--it finds me. You don't have to remind me to be thankful--I praise God every day for His blessings--but I'm curious, why are you "thankful" that's an odd choice. Whom do you thank? Lady Luck I suppose. And the starving child? Whom do they thank?





For me in particular I have good friends, a job, money in the bank and lots to look forward to. I am not alone in this. Life is not pointless without God their to offer us 'hope' of a better one to come.


I have told you many times that you can afford this optimism because of your position in life. Do you ever think of the person that has a crappy life? Where does their "hope" come from? The gospel works for people of all walks of life. It offers hope that transcends material wealth or physical health. Can you say the same of your hope?





juggling mother said...
What a sad way to live your life, and a truely awful way to look at the world around you.


Whoa. Back the truck up. When did I say that's *all* I see?


When I look at the people around me I see goodness, philanthropy, charity, love and helpfulness all around me. I do not deny there are bad things happening, but I do not see that ther are mostly bad people! You need to look at the world with different eyes.

I don't want to be ignorant of the present evil in this world. That's naive. And the beauty that comes from people and from the earth is from God--and I give him the praise and credit. People do wonderful things--believers and unbelievers alike but we are all of us God's creation so all of us experience his common grace.


Really? How are they getting worse? Consider infant mortality rate, life span, medical knowledge/sickness, personal freedoms, personal security, opportunities...... would you really rather have lived 100 years ago? 500 years ago? 2000 years ago? WHY???!!!


Why would you assume I'd want to live in another time? I'm blessed I live after Jesus died on the cross. All the things you listed are qualities of life that many people on the globe do not enjoy. You do realize that, right? Just because you enjoy those benefits doesn't mean we all do.



skywolf said...
But do Christians today accept that ancient Jews are equally saved from sin through the animal sacrifices they made prior to Jesus' arrival?

Um, yes.


To me, brutally killing something is as much a 'sin' as whatever the person may have been atoning for. What about the Romans who actually carried out the Crucifixion? Were they saved from sin by committing a sin? How does that make sense?

If one of the Romans that actually carried out the crucifixion asked God to forgive him--God would.



laura said...
Stop trying to explain it and just swallow it. Mere mortals can never understand the true intentions of God.

God wrote his intentions in the Bible. Many people have a relationship with God through those very words. I don't know what you're implying here.

Skywolf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Skywolf said...

Sorry, CK... messed up that last post. Let's try again:

Um, yes.

Thank you... I only ask because I've asked this of Christians before and haven't received a definitive answer on it. I was never taught this as a Christian either, so I've been left wondering until now.

If one of the Romans that actually carried out the crucifixion asked God to forgive him--God would.

Okay. But why would he need forgiveness for something that God needed to happen? Why would such a crucial part of God's plan depend so hugely on a mortal sin being committed, especially if the whole point of this plan was because of how awful sin is? And if God forgives anyone who asks him for forgiveness, then why was there a need for a blood sacrifice at all? Or does he only forgive because of that previously spilt blood? In which case, he's not just forgiving because it's asked of him, he's forgiving because the brutal death of an innocent man occurred 2000 years ago. Does this not seem to portray a supposedly loving God as a bloodthirsty dictator? It certainly doesn't match my personal ideas of God.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie said: Well, with me being delusional and you being pathetic--it's wonder either of us is happy.

Happiness comes from inside not from outside. I'm fairly happy most of the time.

Sadie said: It's not that it didn't work for me--it supported my lifestyle very nicely. It was the gospel that changed my life. I wanted to know more about God--the cross--and righteousness.

Fair enough.

Sadie asked: I'm curious, why are you "thankful" that's an odd choice. Whom do you thank? Lady Luck I suppose. And the starving child? Whom do they thank?

Well... I'm thankful that I was born in the later half of the 20th Century so haven't been sent off to war and such. I'm thankful that I was born in a 1st World country and not a 3rd World one. I'm thankful that I was more than adequately brought up by my parents. I'm thankful that my genes are OK... there is much to be thankful for. I don't thank anyone - it's just the luck of the draw. I got lucky.

As to the starving child. I guess that they would thank anyone who could give them some food.

Sadie said: I have told you many times that you can afford this optimism because of your position in life.

You mean that I'm too well fed, too educated and too lucky to *need* to believe in God? I don't need rescuing so I don't require a saviour? I think I've already told you what I think of that sort of reasoning.

Sadie said: Do you ever think of the person that has a crappy life? Where does their "hope" come from?

Many people have 'crappy lives'. Their hope could come from any number of places - aid agencies, a change of government, a lucky break. Hope doesn't come from a conviction that this life might be shitty but if I believe in 'X' I'll be OK after I'm dead. Because after they're dead - they'll still be dead. That 'hope' is false hope.

Sadie said: It offers hope that transcends material wealth or physical health. Can you say the same of your hope?

I don't actually understand your question. Hope of/for what? I hope and plan for many things. I still expect to die in 30-40 years whether I have fulfilled them or not.

Sadie said: And the beauty that comes from people and from the earth is from God

You know things like that *really* annoy me. The idea that all good things come from God and all bad things from Man. Give us *some* credit! What an absolutely awful way of looking at things.

Laura said...

Sadie: I dunno about you, but the Bible isn't exactly written like a stereo manual, so it's easy for someone to misconstrue it's "true" meaning. I'm simply reflecting the view of a lot of religious folks I know (christian and otherwise) who simply take what their given, run with it, and not take the time to think about it. Those people usually fall back on the "well, it's a mystery" lines. Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God works in mysterious ways, yada yada

#1 reason why I get in 'trouble' when talking to my mom for instance? Asking too many 'pointless' questions. She'd rather just shut up and swallow...

Juggling Mother said...

"People do wonderful things--believers and unbelievers alike but we are all of us God's creation so all of us experience his common grace"

The opposite MUST also be true then.... People do awful things and we are all God's creations and they do that by the grace of God. So he is a git then?

As for crappy lives and bein g thankful, mostly people are thankful that things are not worse. We can all see people who are in a worse position than us, and so we re thankful for the things we have and treasue. that might be the country/time we live in, our family, our health, or just the loaf of bread we managed to eat yesterday. Aggie can be thankful that he is a walking medical textbook but at least he lives in a country with a NHS and so has drugs to help him through the pain and to extend his life. I can be thankful that I may work my guts out for minimum wage (although, actually, I'm rather thankful minimum wage legislation was brought in) but I have my health and my family. The Nigerian client in our firm may be locked up pending various immigration checks, but he can be thankful he is not in Nigeria anymore and therefore need not fear for his lfe or wonder what he will eat while in prion. It doesn't take much looking to find something to be thankful for in your own life - whatever other people may think of your situation.

CyberKitten said...

Indeed JM. Things to be thankful for depend on your perspective.

sirkolgate said...

Hmmmm… a guy named Jesus walks into an inn, he hands the innkeeper 4 nails and says “Can you put me up for the night?”

Yeah, as a popular comic (who I love dearly) would say “Blas-for-me… Blas-for-you!”

What does this have to do with anything? Or any of the preceding comments? Well, I think that people need to realize that stuff written in articles about what ‘this guy’ says and what ‘this guy’ thinks about is irrelevant to an extent. As much as it may fit your ‘knowledge’ on the subject the bible is a big bad nasty book of real old stuff. As Laura indicated, it’s not a stereo manual.

However, as Laura’s mother may be ‘swallowing it’ there’s a pattern to this argument, and many I’ve seen on discussion boards where religion and those who are ‘religious’ come under the gun of someone who just absolutely ‘knows better’. That… CK is something about Atheists that I personally can’t stand. It is also why these emotional ‘zealots’ (and religion by its nature appeals to those who think with ‘heart’ before ‘head’) are so readily picked apart by the “You don’t say… hmmm let me suggest something more logical.” comments of the ‘intellectual bravados’.

Nature vs. Nurture… The ‘Question of Evil’ (as pertains to a good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God)… Evolution vs. Creationism… These tired arguments can be parroted across the floor till both sides pass away and they will not change. Much smarter people than us have dissected these arguments and their work would impress us not. You’d still say “You don’t say…” while us religious types rant and rave away.

The story of the Cross and the death of Jesus Christ is not some phantasmagoria. It is merely a representation of a time that we can not comment on. The horror of living in those days would far exceed this story.

The thing everyone gets hung up on is that God sent his only Son to die for our sins. Why not just do a multitude of other things that someone who is all powerful could do to instead handle this problem? Just wipe the sins away, or better yet, just manifest and take control of the world and run it ‘right’ so no one suffers ever.

The ‘lamb’ analogy of sacrifice can be misconstrued as a bloody and wholly inconceivable act SkyWolf, but you’re not thinking in the times of this story. People didn’t have money they had livestock and killing your food with your bare hands was something everyone did. What Jesus represents is a item of the MOST value, a father’s FIRST born son. It is a story about God letting us destroy what meant the most to him. It’s not about God killing his own son, it’s no different than a father who lets his son go to war. Jesus had free will just like we do and He made THAT choice.

You probably know that argument of Free Will. Without that everything would have been easy for God, but because of that ONE thing it was not.

Good people have bad things happen to them because that’s how it works. It’s not God’s Mystery… it’s because He gave us the ability to hoe our own row. And I know someone said something about giving ‘man’ credit. I give us credit, we’ve done a great deal for ourselves, but we’re still a bunch of bastards. Not one of us can claim innocence, not a single damn person, ever.

The funny thing about Atheism is this. It is entirely correct in the way of the ‘world’ up to one point. Atheism leaves out God. It all flawlessly works both (Christian and Atheist) ways, up until you die. Then it’s a bit of a crap shoot.

Anyone wanna shed a little light on the subject of death? *crickets*

Notice… I didn’t say you’d be miserable without faith. I didn’t say you’d find sudden happiness and things would go good for you if you had it. I also didn’t thank God for this opportunity to talk to you, though I pray that I might find more tolerance. I just think people need to concentrate less on what they KNOW and more on what they may just ‘feel’. Cause in all honesty, I respect the lot of you and think you’re very intelligent, but you don’t know shit about religion.

At least we agree on one thing. What you do in your life is up to you and you can make it good or bad. Main difference is I think you’re making a scary choice, because if you’re right… I’ll be dead having still lived my life the way I wanted. If I’m right, well shit, sucks to be you.