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Sunday, May 06, 2007

Atheists split over message

By Jay Lindsay for Associated Press

March 30, 2007

BOSTON -- Atheists are under attack these days for being too militant, not just disbelieving in religious faith but for trying to eradicate it. And who's leveling these accusations? Other atheists, it turns out. Among the millions of Americans who don't believe God exists, there's a split between people such as Greg Epstein, who holds the partially endowed post of humanist chaplain at Harvard University, and so-called "New Atheists." Epstein and other humanists feel their movement is on the verge of explosive growth, but are concerned it will be dragged down by what they see as the militancy of New Atheism.

The most pre-eminent New Atheists include best-selling authors Richard Dawkins, who has called the God of the Old Testament "a psychotic delinquent," and Sam Harris, who foresees global catastrophe unless faith is renounced. They say religious belief is so harmful it must be defeated and replaced by science and reason. Epstein calls them "atheist fundamentalists." He sees them as rigid in their dogma, and as intolerant as some of the faith leaders with whom atheists share the most obvious differences.

Next month, as Harvard celebrates the 30th anniversary of its humanist chaplaincy - part of the school's chaplaincy corps - Epstein will use the occasion to provide a counterpoint to the New Atheists. "Humanism is not about erasing religion," he said. "It's an embracing philosophy." In general, humanism rejects supernaturalism, while stressing principles such as dignity of the individual, equality and social justice. If there's no God to help humanity, it holds, people better do the work. The celebration of a "New Humanism" will emphasize inclusion and diversity within the movement, and will include Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist E.O. Wilson, a humanist who has made well-chronicled efforts to team with evangelical Christians to fight global warming.

Part of the New Humanism, Wilson said, is "an invitation to a common search for morally based action in areas agreement can be reached in." The tone of the New Atheists will only alienate important faith groups whose help is needed to solve the world's problems, Wilson said. "I would suggest possibly that while there is use in the critiques by Dawkins and Harris, that they've overdone it," he said. Harris, author of "Letter to a Christian Nation," sees the disagreement as overblown. He thinks there's room for multiple arguments in the debate between scientific rationalism and religious dogmatism. "I don't think everyone needs to take as uncompromising a stance as I have against faith," he said. But, he added, an intellectual intolerance of people who strongly believe things on bad evidence is just "basic human sanity."

"We do not jail people for being stupid, but we do stop listening to them after a while," he said in e-mailed comments. Harris also rejected the term "atheist fundamentalist," calling it "a silly play upon words." He noted that, when it comes to the ancient Greek gods, everyone is an atheist and no one is asked to justify that to pagans who want to believe in Zeus. "Likewise with the God of Abraham," he said. "There is nothing 'fundamentalist' about finding the claims of religious demagogues implausible." Some of the participants in Harvard's celebration of its humanist chaplaincy have no problem with the New Atheists' tone. Harvard psychologist and author Steven Pinker said the forcefulness of their criticism is standard in scientific and political debate, and "far milder than what we accept in book and movie reviews."

"It's only the sense that religion deserves special respect - the exact taboo that Dawkins and Harris are arguing against - that people feel that those guys are being meanies when applying ordinary standards of evaluation to religion," Pinker said in e-mailed comments. Dawkins did not respond to requests for comment. He has questioned whether teaching children they could go to hell is worse in the long term than sexually abusing them, and compares the evidence of God to evidence for unicorns, fairies and a "Flying Spaghetti Monster." His attempt to win converts is clear in "The God Delusion," when he writes of his hope that "religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." A 2006 Baylor University survey estimates about 15 million atheists in the United States.

Not all nonbelievers identify as humanists or atheists, with some calling themselves agnostics, freethinkers or skeptics. But humanists see the potential for unifying the groups under their banner, creating a large, powerful minority that can't be ignored or disdained by mainstream political and social thinkers. Lori Lipman Brown, director of the Secular Coalition of America, sees a growing public acceptance of people who don't believe in God, pointing to California U.S. Rep. Pete Stark's statement this month that he doesn't believe in a supreme being. Stark is the first congressman to acknowledge being an atheist.

As more prominent people such as Stark publicly acknowledge they don't believe in God, "I think it will make it more palatable," Brown said. But Epstein worries the attacks on religion by the New Atheists will keep converts away. "The philosophy of the future is not going to be one that tries to erase its enemies," he said. "The future is going to be people coming together from what motivates them”.

[Personally I tend to oscillate between the two positions mentioned here. Mostly I don’t care what people believe in their own heads or do in their own time – in private. But from time to time religion irritates me enough that if I could wish it all away I would. I don’t think getting rid of religion is impossible, just very, very difficult. I hope that one day we could be a world without it but it’s not going to happen anytime soon. So, for the time being at least, we need to accept that religion exists and be practical about our relation to it – whilst still hoping that it will all just go away at some point…. And maybe working towards that day whenever we can.]

17 comments:

Yulacu said...

I think there is more than one way to address atheism and its interractions with religion. I think there needs to be people out there that can see that atheists aren't evil, devil-worshippers. Sometimes I think people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris aren't the best people to convey that message. Does that mean that Harris and Dawkins are useless? No. I think they are unapologetically bringing religious dialogue to the forefront. They are taking it down from that sacred table, so that people can talk openly about the claims. I think there's room for several different approaches.

dbackdad said...

Interesting article. I'm like you in that I basically share the views of Dawkins and Harris but am maybe just a little less confrontational in daily practice. That's probably my shortcoming but it's a bit of necessity in the world in which we live and, in my case, the house in which I live.

Sadie Lou said...

You'd have to think of what might happen if religion just up and "went away".
Who would look after the hungry, the poor, the unlovable, the sick and the spiritually crushed?
I'm not saying atheists wouldn't find some way to step up to the challenge but I don't see atheists matching Christians in the area of physically "being" with the underpriveledged.

Plonka said...

Sadie: I'm not saying atheists wouldn't find some way to step up to the challenge but I don't see atheists matching Christians in the area of physically "being" with the underpriveledged.

You can't possibly be suggesting that there'd be no aid if religion went away.

Where I live (in Australia), the vast majority of aid organisation is run by non-religious and unaffiliated groups.

Homeless shelters here are run by local unaffiliated community groups. Of the dozen or so we have, there is just one major hospital that is owned and run by a religion (and at the moment it's one to be avoided, although there was a time it was one of the best). CASA, a privately run and non affiliated group runs our biggest (and best) women's refuge providing practical help and services that are second to none. Our biggest orphanage is non affiliated as are our gambling, alcohol and drug initiatives, and so the list continues.

So you see, it's not that atheists "wouldn't find some way to help" rather that atheists might have more opportunity to help. They already do more and better work here where "being" with the underprivileged is concerned, so to my mind, if religion were to make way, we may even see some improvement.

CyberKitten said...

the alpha said: I think there is more than one way to address atheism and its interractions with religion.

Indeed there are. It needed something strong to open the door to a critical debate with religion and I think this is exactly what Dawkins & Harris have done. They have said things (rather bluntly at times) that needed to be said. After that initial salvo it should be possible to continue the debate in a civilised manner - though I'm sure that the 'big guns' will fire off a few more rounds now and again.

dbackdad said: I'm like you in that I basically share the views of Dawkins and Harris but am maybe just a little less confrontational in daily practice.

In our day to day dealings with Christians we don't normally need to be that confrontational. It's only when they get too 'in your face' that you can 'let rip' with the ammunition we have at our disposal. Most Christians aren't used to been argued with (in my experience) so any reasoned come back can be a shock to them. Dawkins & Co are even more shocking to many because they don't believe in taking prisioners.

Sadie asked: You'd have to think of what might happen if religion just up and "went away".
Who would look after the hungry, the poor, the unlovable, the sick and the spiritually crushed?

As plonker said charity (and other aspects of morality/etics) are not only Christian virtues. They are *human* virtues. I can't believe you are saying that only Christians are charitable? There are non-Christian charities and non-theistic charities (and the same with individuals). Charity in particular and morality in general would not vanish if Christianity or religion faded away over time. They existed before Christ and I'm sure that they will exist long after people have ceased believing in him.

Sadie Lou said...

No. Obviously I don't believe Christians are the only ones supporting the poor and needy. Please re-read my comment. I just think that you can't possibly ignore the side-effects to losing religion altogether. Without religion, the world would have missed out some major caregivers--Mother Theresa for one. Wilbur Wilberforce for two--Christ and his message of love is the major driving force behind many of our iconic leaders in ministry and policy reform.
While I fully understand that there are many non believers out there doing good things for humanity--can't you look at the majority of the organizations mending the world's sorrows? Look at Hurricane Katrina--what were the first organizations to respond to the crisis and needs?
Look at Darfur--who is helping the displaced Darfurians? Christians.

Unknown said...

I found myself reading that article and going, "Huh?"

The reason: these Harvard humanists are proposing that us angry atheists are too angry and driving away potential "converts" (ugh, what a horrible way to think of a person, anyway, IMO, into the converted and not -- it smacks of commodifying people) but they want to create this organization where the theists are allowed in . . .

If they reject supernaturalism, adopt the humanist philosophy including scientific materialism, and reject gods as being useful for social change.

Ahem. In short, the religious people are allowed in if they stop being religious. *scratches head*

IMO, I think I prefer angry atheism because it has the virtue of honest compared to this.

Sadie Lou said...

*william wilburforce...
'scuse me.

Plonka said...

Sadie: I read your comment again, as instructed.

Who would look after the hungry, the poor, the unlovable, the sick and the spiritually crushed?
I'm not saying atheists wouldn't find some way to step up to the challenge but I don't see atheists matching Christians in the area of physically "being" with the underpriveledged.


Seems to me that you are saying that without christians, no-one would look after "the hungry, the poor, the unlovable, the sick and the spiritually crushed" Of course, you do qualify that by saying: "I'm not saying atheists wouldn't find some way to step up to the challenge" thereby implying that they currently do not.

Sorry Sadie but you are wrong, plain and simple.

Sadie Lou said...

No, you're wrong. Plain and simple. You can stomp your feet all you want but it's not going to make the very real fact that Christians make up the majority of the people pulling the weight in that area go away. If Christians disappeared so would the majority of "help".
Prove me wrong.
I'm not saying unbelievers don't do anything--i'm saying they are not the majority--Christians are. Just take my two examples--Hurricane Katrina and Darfur.
Should be easy enough to find out who was there helping...in the majority.

CyberKitten said...

I think that you're missing the point I was trying to make Sadie.

I'm certainly not saying that individual Christians or Christian/Theist Organisations aren't indeed charitable but what I *am* trying to say is that charity & Christianity/theism are not one and the same thing.

I do not believe that charity would decline in line with any possible religious decline - in just the same way that I do not believe that morality would decline (although that is open to interpretation [grin]). Charity is a human thing not a purely religious one. We are moved to give because of empathy for other humans and not because of commands or instructions from God.

Skywolf said...

Exactly. Whatever happened to just being a decent human being? Why does a person have to be affiliated with a specific religion in order to look after oppressed and suffering people? I find the notion that only Christians think and are prepared to act this way quite insulting. And can I point out the fact that Buddhists are atheists? Buddhism is all about looking after people and having consideration and care for life. They don't need to 'step up to the challenge'. They're already living it, by the very nature of their philosophy.

And if we're talking about the difference that Christianity (or religion in general) has made to the world, what about all the hideous negative influences associated with it over the years? Wars, the Crusades, terrorism, paedophilia within the Church - we might not have Mother Teresa, but we wouldn't have these specific events either if Christianity had never existed. Does one outweigh the other? I can't answer that. But let's not pretend that Christianity is solely a force for good in the world. Too often, it has been precisely the opposite.

Juggling Mother said...

Sadie lou - we've had this argument before. many of the worlds most "caring" charities are non religious. Medicin sans frontiers always jumps straight to my mind, but you could add in so many more - ranging from little community groups to massive multi nationls. Just becuase you give to christian ones, does not mean those are the only ones doing the work. or even the best!

according to my brief internet search:

SOS is the largest orphan charity - non religious

Save the children is the UK's largest childrens charity - non religious.

The wellcome trust is the UK's largest charity (medical research) - non religious

The Mayo clinic the USA's largest charity - non religious

as for darfur - Oxfam and the UN seem to be doing a fair bit - both non religious.

And who helped after Katrina? well, obviously it would be a bit much to expect the richest givernment in the world to assist it's own citizens - so the number one charity helping the Katrina victims? The Red cross - non religious!

we can carry on listing charities if you like. But I can only think of a few biggies that are religion specific - and tbh, i'm not sure th work they do is always of the most useful kind (catholicism and AIDS comes to mind)

CyberKitten said...

As always JM - Thanks for your knowledge & research!

Sadie Lou said...

cy said...
I *am* trying to say is that charity & Christianity/theism are not one and the same thing.

How do we come so far?
All I was trying to get across to you people is that you can't just wish for religion to go away without suffering some consequences--perhaps I misrepresented my point? I don't care.
I feel like i have to prove that wiping out religion might sound like a novel idea to all of you but how would you all like it if I said atheists should all go away? You would try to appeal to my knowledge of all the good things atheists add to society, right/
That's all I was doing.

Juggling Mother said...

I don't think CK was suggesting all theists should "disappear" in a puff of smoke instantly and that would make all things right:-)

More that the world should drift more quickly towards an atheist/secular position. he speaks from a very British PoV, as thta is exactly whta has happened here over the past 50 years, and we think it has been a Good Thing. It would be a great thing if the same could happen world-wide over the next generation or two.

That's certainly the way I see it. i'm reasonably certain CK is similar.
Of course, and good theists does think all atheists (and theists of different faiths) should disappear immediately - ideally to come and join the "true" faith, but just disappear would be good too. that is exactly what monotheistic religions are aiming for at the heart of all their policies!

CyberKitten said...

JM said: I don't think CK was suggesting all theists should "disappear" in a puff of smoke instantly and that would make all things right:-)

Nope - but come 'The Rapture' we might find out... [grin].

JM said: More that the world should drift more quickly towards an atheist/secular position. he speaks from a very British PoV, as thta is exactly whta has happened here over the past 50 years, and we think it has been a Good Thing.

Very much so. I think that the continued drift to a more Secular society has been a very good thing.

JM said: That's certainly the way I see it. i'm reasonably certain CK is similar.

I think that you should know me well enough by now... [chuckle].