About Me

My photo
I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Friday, May 18, 2007

Let’s end the free ride.

By Victor J. Stenger

For Skeptical Briefs.

January 25, 2007

The continuing war between science and religion has attracted a lot of media attention lately. A few scientists have begun to speak out more forcefully about the contradictions between science and religion, and the public seems to be listening. Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and Sam Harris's The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation have been bestsellers. I have made my own modest contribution with God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows that God Does Not Exist, which was released in January.

These books represent an escalation in the science-religion rhetoric that is not welcome to many scientists. Consider the recent attempts to have intelligent design creationism taught in schools. This movement is completely motivated by religion. Yet scientists and science organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences, 93 percent of whose members do not believe in a personal God, have avoided confronting religion directly on the issue by insisting, wrongfully in my view, that science has nothing to say about God. As a matter of practical politics, this has worked well and evolution now looks secure. Although this battle seems to be over, the National Center for Science Education, a private organization that coordinates the political efforts to keep evolution in the schools, and its cohorts in various "citizens for science" groups around the country remain obsessed with creationism. They worry so much about the dreaded word "creation" damaging schoolchildren that they ignore far more dangerous threats religious ideas pose to science and society. These groups are sitting on their hands while theology has taken over the role of science in advising Washington policy makers. This has lead to decisions that not only contradict science but also threaten the lives and well being of people everywhere.

The strong influence of religious thinking on the policies in the Bush administration, and the corresponding diminished role of science, has been thoroughly documented by Kevin Phillips in American Theocracy, Chris Mooney in The Republican War on Science, and Chris Hedges in American Fascists. Key conservative power brokers in Washington have imposed their biblically based views at almost every level of the federal government. Theological arguments have affected policies on everything from reproductive rights to the environment. Often these arguments fly in the face of scientific facts and restrict scientific research that could, in the end, greatly improve human life.

In one of his first acts as president, George W. Bush restored a gag rule on aid to international organizations that counsel women on abortion. Of millions of dollars spent on preventing and treating AIDS in Africa, 30 percent was earmarked for promoting sexual abstinence and none for condoms. Here at home, $170 million was spent in 2005 alone in promoting abstinence-only in schools. The Centers for Disease Control was pressured to remove from its website scientific findings that abstinence-only programs do not work. According to a 2003 report issued by Democratic Congressman Henry A. Waxman and the minority staff of the Government Reform Committee, the Bush administration modified performance measures for abstinence-based programs to make them look effective. Similarly, under pressure from conservatives, a National Cancer Institute website was changed to reflect the view that there may be a risk of breast cancer associated with abortions, a claim made by evangelicals that has no scientific support. Bush's obstruction of stem-cell research, which holds promise to provide a wide range of therapies, is based on the theological view that a 150-cell blastocyst contains a human soul. While scientists may prefer to remain neutral on the matter of souls, they should point out that a blastocyst cannot suffer while stem-cell research could result in considerable less suffering in fully developed humans.

Bush appointee to FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory committee, gynecologist W. David Hager, is an evangelical who prescribes Bible readings to treat premenstrual syndrome. Hager was primarily responsible for FDA blocking over-the-counter sales of the birth control drug known as Plan B. This was despite testimony before his committee by a scientific advisory panel that "Plan B was the safest product that we have ever seen brought before us." In the 2004 Conference on World Population, only the U.S. and Vatican representatives voted against a resolution to limit population growth. Evangelicals have also influenced Bush administration policies on the environment, the White House intervening in 2003 to remove cautions against global warming from a report on the environment. More recently, Bush has seemed to make an about face on global warming, but NASA is still delaying or canceling a number of satellites designed to obtain critical information on Earth climate. Bush gives the Space Station higher priority, despite the fact that a consensus of scientists regard it as scientifically useless.

In October 2005, George Deutsch, a presidential appointee in NASA headquarters sent an e-mail message to Flint Wild, a NASA contractor working on a set of Web presentations for middle-school students. The message said the word “theory” needed to be added after every mention of the big bang. The big bang is “not proven fact; it is opinion,” Mr. Deutsch wrote, adding, “It is not NASA’s place, nor should it be, to make a declaration such as this about the existence of the universe that discounts intelligent design by a creator.” While scientists have begun to speak out against these policies, they have not directly confronted the religious thinking underlying those policies. Presumably they fear offending "deeply held beliefs." I am pleading that religion no longer be given this free ride. The stakes are too high. Let science compete with religion in the marketplace of ideas. Scientists should question religious assumptions just as they question those of other scientists. And they should vigorously protest whenever faith is used to suppress sound scientific results.

19 comments:

sirkolgate said...

Mr. Stenger said: They worry so much about the dreaded word "creation" damaging schoolchildren that they ignore far more dangerous threats religious ideas pose to science and society.

Ok, danger is the 'jihadist' wanting to blow him/herself up in a crowded airport. Danger is not confrontation to abortion and stem cell policies. Hindering medical research and meddling with the 'woman's choice'... yes, but not dangerous.

I don't think Religion should be coddled or protected from science. I just think that jarheads like Dawkins and Harris are stunted, attention mongers and the “Dr. Phils” of their genre. Scream at religion all you want, be pissed cause you couldn’t get your plan B, and angry cause educational websites have to attach “theory” to descriptions of the “Big Bang”. No one says you can’t, nothing is sacred anymore, not even religion.

Dawkins and Harris would lead you to believe that religious people are a ‘danger’ to you simply because they believe stuff that isn’t ‘scientifically proven’. They want religion to be eradicated from the planet.

I’d counter that people like Dawkins and Harris are ‘dangerous’ because they write books and articles at incite people against each other. A recent article by Harris that CK posted is straight from personal experience with a tone of authority on the subject and half his ideas are malformed and incomplete. I was easily able to pick his entire argument apart, and I wasn’t even trying.

There’s a lot of things in this world that are ‘dangerous’ that we don’t even recognize as such. Media stories that are biased and opinionated, book writers who use grandiose language and a PhD to twist what the truth means, and the huddled masses who refuse to do research for themselves and accept everything spoon fed to them. This is all ‘dangerous’ for the same reasons that religion is ‘dangerous’ but no one speaks against them. Are they too enjoying a ‘free ride’?

However, while I want Dawkins and Harris to choke I find Mr. Stenger to have some redeeming qualities: Presumably they fear offending "deeply held beliefs." I am pleading that religion no longer be given this free ride. The stakes are too high. Let science compete with religion in the marketplace of ideas. Scientists should question religious assumptions just as they question those of other scientists. And they should vigorously protest whenever faith is used to suppress sound scientific results.

Dawkins and Harris could take a lesson from Victor. This is calmly expressed and it ends his article on very sturdy footing. Yes, question the religious assumptions (I’m religious and I question them) and protest where ‘faith’ interferes with science.

I’ve always said science and religion can’t be warred against each other, but that doesn’t mean science can’t compete with religion in a marketplace of ideas. Religion doesn’t have the monopoly on thought, it is a practice of living your life and it pertains to you as a person. Religion doesn’t tell you the best way to build a thermostat or how to engineer better burning fuels.

I agree that Religious ideas should stay out of science and vice versa. What I don’t agree with is taking any approach to religion that would breed intolerance and hate. That’s just spiteful, childish, and ultimately dangerous.

Unknown said...

What I don’t agree with is taking any approach to religion that would breed intolerance and hate.

But . . . in America, there is no bigger promoter of intolerance and hatred!

CyberKitten said...

Thanks for another long response sirkolgate.

sirkolgate said: I don't think Religion should be coddled or protected from science. I just think that jarheads like Dawkins and Harris are stunted, attention mongers and the “Dr. Phils” of their genre.

So... It's Ok to criticise religion - just not the way that Dawkins & Harris do? You think that the criticism should be more.... polite?

sirkolgate said: Dawkins and Harris would lead you to believe that religious people are a ‘danger’ to you simply because they believe stuff that isn’t ‘scientifically proven’. They want religion to be eradicated from the planet.

From what I can gather they do indeed think that religion is dangerous - as you have already pointed out regarding suicide bombers. Although Christians do not normally resort to this sort of thing there is still a danger in determining political policy via religious dogma. When stem cell research is restricted due to relgious ideas it ultimately results in people dying unecessarily. When a vaccine for cervical cancer is restricted due to religious moral indignation young women die unecessarily. That is one (other) danger from religion.

sirkolgate said: I’d counter that people like Dawkins and Harris are ‘dangerous’ because they write books and articles at incite people against each other.

You mean unlike some 'religious' outpourings regarding homosexuality, women and anyone *not* of their particular religion or sect?

sirkolgate said: I agree that Religious ideas should stay out of science and vice versa.

Unfortunately its not that simple. Certainly the core subjects of each 'side' are very different and shouldn't interfere with each other. But at the edges there can be overlap from time to time. Often this is in the area of morality - when a new medical technique (for example) becomes available but is turned down on religious grounds. This is all well & good for individuals to live by their beliefs. I do have a huge problem, however, when they attempt to prevent others from taking advantage of scientific advancement.

sirkolgate said: What I don’t agree with is taking any approach to religion that would breed intolerance and hate. That’s just spiteful, childish, and ultimately dangerous.

Chris Bradly answered this one. It seems that at least for a few very outspoken Christians are doing just that - spreading hate and intollerance. What Would Jesus Think?

sirkolgate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sirkolgate said...

I won’t ever stand and say that there aren’t people who spew hate under the cross. Dawkins and Harris would lead you to believe that religion is the fuel for these hypocrites, but that’s not so. These people are ignorant because of their own choices and they’re stubborn and stupid enough to do whatever necessary to enforce their opinion. They use religion as a crutch and the bible as a weapon, because they can. This is not because it was intended to be used so.

My point, and a point that’s well taken, is to find fault with the speaker/author/activist and not with the flag they wave. You can say you’re a Christian, but when you open your mouth to spread hate against anyone, you’re not.

That’s what I’m getting at, and if CK wants to put up some religious ‘leader’s’ article against stem cell research or gay/lesbian marriage that’s as full of hate and idiocy I’ll tear that down too.

When you read an article that uses stereotypes and cliché to make points that are then ground into you with the spicy sting of hate you need to find new reading material. I don’t subscribe to hate mongers of any sect. If I go to church and my pastor makes the mistake of dragging his political views and sentiment into a sermon I walk up to him after the service and tell him what I think of his jargon, then I report him to the board. There are religious institutions that remove pastors/priests/fathers/deacons… etc. from service if they can’t stick to scripture and they feel they can use the pulpit as their soapbox. There are also a stunning and overwhelming majority of Christians who don’t agree with the ‘far’ right, but chose to live their lives and not get caught up in it. Is there anything wrong with that choice?

There are a lot of good people who don’t stand up for what they believe because they’d prefer to do other things with their time. There are a lot of excellent people of all types who wisely follow the old adage “It’s not polite to talk about Politics or Religion.”

If you want to tear down those jackasses that think people want to hear their garbage and better yet tie that garbage to ‘faith’ well then go right ahead. But, don’t confuse this stupidity with my religion. Attack these morons and their followers, not the religion which they’ve tossed aside. I don’t discriminate when it comes to ignorant and I think that’s where people need to draw a line. To do anything else is to cast your ballot for idiocricy and you’ve just joined the same ‘movement’ which you war against.

Ken Comer said...

sirkolgate said
Ok, danger is the 'jihadist' wanting to blow him/herself up in a crowded airport. Danger is not confrontation to abortion and stem cell policies. Hindering medical research and meddling with the 'woman's choice'... yes, but not dangerous.

Hindering medical research and meddling with women's control over their own bodies is intolerance and, in a lot of cases, this intolerance has been fanned to hate: witness the abortion bombers, the abortionist murders, the destruction of clinics, etc. Who's responsible for that if not the theists?

By the way, referring to a 'terrorist' as a 'jihadist' is to pay them the ultimate compliment. See the Wikipedia for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_pillar_of_Islam and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam
for more information. Call them "theism-motivated murderer" and you name the person you're calling 'jihadist' exactly what he/she is. The reason that I avoid using the word 'terrorist' there is that I have yet to hear a definition of terrorism that excluded religion--historically, a large proportion of terrorists have not been religiously motivated--or place of origin that would not make the United States a terrorist nation.

Earlier, you claimed that atheists had no right to speak about theism because we did not understand it, and here I see you apparently speaking in apparent ignorance of a fellow sect of followers of the God of Abraham, whereas I, an agnostic whom many would term an atheist, knew far more about it than you did. From where I sit, there are three sects in the sectarian violence in Iraq because this war has been promoted as a war of Christians (who torture) coming to help the aid of others who were under the domination of a 'criminal regime' (I'm quoting one of my senators directly here).

I personally promote tolerance of religion no matter how irrational I believe its practice and adherence to be. If I seem to be using inflammatory language to describe what's going on here, please understand that I am trying to speak in the language of those you seem to condemn.

sirkolgate said
I won’t ever stand and say that there aren’t people who spew hate under the cross. Dawkins and Harris would lead you to believe that religion is the fuel for these hypocrites, but that’s not so....They use religion as a crutch and the bible as a weapon, because they can.

You seem to be making the point of the militant atheists for them. Religion is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance. You argue (in the section I elided) that religion--presumably the Christian religion in particular--was not created for that purpose and therefore should not be criticized for the warped purposes to which it has been put. I'd argue--on the side of the atheist militants--that the original inspiration for something has no relevance when evaluating it in terms of its present day usage.

Christianity is/was a tool for control of the masses since at around 400AD when Constantin became "born again". The Catholic church Bible was written in a form of Latin that even Latin speakers--most of whom were functional illiterates in any case--could not understand. This meant that the Priest was an incontestable authority with a Holy Book (that, effectively, said whatever he said it said) to back him. Whatever you believe about Christ, understand that Christianity was the first huge religion that began "democratic" in nature and then morphed into one that abetted theocracy even in nations where Christianity did not actually hold the reigns of government (as far as I know): in Judaism, they generally taught people (women, of course, are not people) how to read and the "rabbi" was a "teacher" whom you could argue with; with the Greeks, there was a pantheon and different "gods" (representatives thereof) had differing influence depending on the time of year and the local traditions. When Christianity or Catholicism (or the Moslem religion) is not the state religion, its leaders are well armed to make their system of justice and morality become the state's system.

sirkolgate said
Attack these morons and their followers, not the religion which they’ve tossed aside.

That's unfair to ask of non-Christians. When you look at (the happily recent corpse of) Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, Pat Robertson and pretty much every other TV preacher I know of, those are the voices of the demographic that most people who call themselves Christians. I do not see people on TV saying "Real Christians believe in Reality, and that includes Evolution and that includes the shining hope that stem cell research provides." I do not see people saying, "I would never murder a fetus in my womb because I am a Christian and I believe that this child has a soul, but if you do not share my beliefs, you are free to do as you please."

When we start hearing a groundswell of Christians decrying other Christians for promulgating the cause of ignorance and for being intolerant of others' beliefs, then you can start asking for the benefit of the doubt. I know that there are right-minded Christians. From what I see, they are vastly outnumbered. When you can point to evidence that says that your religion's adherents deserve the benefit of the doubt because they police their own, I'll be glad to listen.

Until then, take a look at FSTDT.COM (fundies say the damnedest things) and see what the least common denominator (most common?) of these people-who-are-not-really-christians have to say. Admittedly, these are the ones selected as the WORST of those submitted. I once submitted a quote about the family of Pat Tillman, the NFL player who chose to go to the Army with his brother (who was killed the same day), made by Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, the guy who (apparently) tried to cover up the fratricide that caused Tillman's death (apparently) and conspired to get him a Silver Star (reportedly) so it would go good with the "Football Hero Dies Heroic Death" legend that the Pentagon Propaganda people promulgated periodically. He said that (paraphrase) they do not believe in "the system" to correctly report on their son's death because they do not believe in God. That was turned down as too mild.

Whether or not that's the "true" Christian, it's the kind of Christian that I am likely to meet if I chance upon one on the street. There are more of them than you, and even you seem to hold back on the right of a woman to seek medical assistance for the elimination of a parasite. (Look up the word "parasite" if it helps make that sentence clear.)

Respect,
Ken

Sadie Lou said...

My point, and a point that’s well taken, is to find fault with the speaker/author/activist and not with the flag they wave. You can say you’re a Christian, but when you open your mouth to spread hate against anyone, you’re not.

People will never, ever "get" that. Ever. Honestly, I have stopped trying to help people understand but it's impossible. You are up against huge odds. Just try to be an example. Maybe if enough people that claim to be Christian actually walk the talk then the people that do the loudest talking and don't walk the walk will eventually look like the fools they really are.

When we start hearing a groundswell of Christians decrying other Christians for promulgating the cause of ignorance and for being intolerant of others' beliefs, then you can start asking for the benefit of the doubt. I know that there are right-minded Christians. From what I see, they are vastly outnumbered. When you can point to evidence that says that your religion's adherents deserve the benefit of the doubt because they police their own, I'll be glad to listen.

You see? Media-Hound Christians will always be the "example" we Christians are held up to. People will absorb what they hear and see in the media and formulate opinions based on these limited examples. They will very rarely go around and talk to "real" Christians and then formulate opinions based on experience--not just what they digest in the news.
It's an uphill battle and I, for one, am weary of climbing...
...and quite frankly, what is the ultimate goal? I've had an atheist finally relent and say something like "Okay. It appears as though you don't belong to some nut-job church--"
Big freakin' deal!
The only thing that came from hours of dialog was that I was removed of my label--but I'm just one person! Does every Christian have to prove their sanity before minds are changed??
Lame.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie said: Maybe if enough people that claim to be Christian actually walk the talk then the people that do the loudest talking and don't walk the walk will eventually look like the fools they really are.

WELL said that woman! [grin].

Sadie asked: Does every Christian have to prove their sanity before minds are changed??

That's a good question. Unfortunately the good Christians (however you define that) are being tarred with the same brush as the bad Christians - or those who would have us believe they are Christians. I'm afraid that you're in a situation where you are guilty untill proven innocent. Bummer I know...

sirkolgate said...

Thanks Sadie. You did a much better job then I was about to.

Ken said: You seem to be making the point of the militant atheists for them. Religion is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance. You argue (in the section I elided) that religion--presumably the Christian religion in particular--was not created for that purpose and therefore should not be criticized for the warped purposes to which it has been put. I'd argue--on the side of the atheist militants--that the original inspiration for something has no relevance when evaluating it in terms of its present day usage.

Let’s try Ken’s reasoning across a few other schools of thought:

Money is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.
Liberal Media is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.
The internet is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.
Alcohol is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.
Celebrity is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.
Atheism is a powerful tool for promulgating positions of hate and intolerance.

I could find a thousand articles in print, media, and on internet all posted by ‘experts’ in the field to support each one of those permutations. It makes no more sense to argue any one of those points than it does to argue your point Mr. Comer.

You call for Christians decrying Christians and then you’ll listen. Well, as soon as moderate Atheists decry Atheists like Dawkins and Harris I’ll listen.

Now it’s time for me to follow some advice, something I found on a website that is a guilty pleasure for me, and not Christian at all: http://maddox.xmission.com/

Maddox said in his FAQ:
Why don't you do a page about religion? How about those stupid Pagans / Christians / Buddhists / Atheists / Mormons / Hindus / Muslims / Jews, do you think they're stupid?

No, give it a rest already. I'm not about to change anyone's fundamental beliefs with a two paragraph blurb on my web site. Believe what you want to and shut the hell up about it. The whole anti-religion, anti-atheism, anti-whatever theme is tired; GET A NEW CAUSE. If you want a good old fashioned pointless debate about religion, look for it somewhere else. I'm sure you'll find many self-proclaimed "enlightened" 14 year olds who have it all figured out and are more than happy to tell you their bullshit philosophy about religion and why your beliefs are wrong.


As raw as Maddox is, he’s certainly a lot more honest then most of the people that I’ve met here. It’s a website about one guy’s, clearly stated opinion, and you take it or leave it. This blog isn’t some quest for answers, it’s just a load of crap in a pretty package. No different than Maddox except that it’s a lot less entertaining and no where near as successful.

Sadie, sorry I can’t hang around and keep the flies off, but you’re doing a good job.

sirkolgate said...

Sorry, I just saw this post when I posted and it's too much of a steaming pile to not comment on.

Cyberkitten coughed up the following hairball: That's a good question. Unfortunately the good Christians (however you define that) are being tarred with the same brush as the bad Christians - or those who would have us believe they are Christians. I'm afraid that you're in a situation where you are guilty untill proven innocent. Bummer I know...

What!?!?!?!?!?!11/!/!?!?1/!

Get you're head out your cyberkitten ass and read things before you post them. No one is guilty until proven innocent??? Are your brains loose in your head? Is it the rattling noise that makes you post things like that?

Guess Atheists are murdering psychopaths cause there was this Atheist who was a murdering psychopath... ?

Cyberkitten... WTF? Then you ended it with "Bummer, I know..." what condescending BS is that? Quit pretending you have class if you're gonna post brain dumps like that.

*takes a deep breath* You know, I don't care if I made you spill your tea and now you figure I've gone and proved how irrational Christians are.

You just proved how done I need to be with this site and how stupid I was to hang around.

What a waste of cyberspace.

Bummer... I know.

CyberKitten said...

Wow.... Sirkolgate...... I guess that I've annoyed you in some way!

sirkolgate said: You call for Christians decrying Christians and then you’ll listen. Well, as soon as moderate Atheists decry Atheists like Dawkins and Harris I’ll listen.

Actually moderate Atheists have been very critical of the confrontational approach of both Dawkins & Harris and think that they're doing more harm than good with their books and public pronouncements.

sirkolgate said: As raw as Maddox is, he’s certainly a lot more honest then most of the people that I’ve met here.

I actually think that most people who post here are honest most of the time. I certainly have little reason to think otherwise.

sirkolgate said: This blog isn’t some quest for answers, it’s just a load of crap in a pretty package.

Well, at least you think that the 'packaging' is pretty. I am curious why you think that this Blog is *not* a quest for answers and is, in fact, a 'load of crap'. I certainly ask *lots* of questions - as is my 'style' and I'm certainly a truth-seeker (presently deeply into various shades of Philosophy). Maybe its because I have dismissed theological 'answers' and am looking for *my* answers in all the 'wrong' places? Or is it because I don't accept your answers as *my* answers? If you don't want to waste your time here anymore though I guess I'll never know.

sirkolgate said: No different than Maddox except that it’s a lot less entertaining and no where near as successful.

That's OK as I'm not really here to 'entertain' nor am I interested in 'success'.

sirkolgate said: Get you're head out your cyberkitten ass and read things before you post them. No one is guilty until proven innocent??? Are your brains loose in your head? Is it the rattling noise that makes you post things like that?

You don't think that some people are judged guilty until proven innocent? It actually happens all the time - especially if you are a member of any of the various minority communities. Or if you happen to be Muslim in custody in Cuba or (until recently) here. There is a serious presumption of guilt for these people. Of course there *is* also the doctrine of Original Sin (Guilt) which can only be redeamed (proven innocent?) by accepting Jesus as your Personal Saviour - a stretch I know... but aren't we *all* supposedly BORN guilty?

sirkolgate said: WTF? Then you ended it with "Bummer, I know..." what condescending BS is that? Quit pretending you have class if you're gonna post brain dumps like that.

What I was saying was clear. The Christians that many people are aware of are the tele-evangelists - and other outspoken members of that community - who are well known for spouting offensive nonsense. To some this is their only (or major) exposure to Christianity. Therefore, when they come across people who also call themselves Christians (like yourself & Sadie) that it is not unexpected for some people to regard you as the same until they get to know you - hence 'guilty' until proven 'innocent'.

sirkolgate said: You know, I don't care if I made you spill your tea and now you figure I've gone and proved how irrational Christians are.

Christians certainly hold irrational beliefs. Its certainly debatable if this makes them irrational people though - saying that, humans are pretty much irrational beings. I've certainly never meet a fully rational person in my 40 odd years and doubt that such a creature exists.

sirkolgate said: What a waste of cyberspace.

Cyberspace - whilst not infinite (probably) is certainly * very* large indeed. I'm sure if that if my Blog is such a waste of space its an insignificant space being wasted.

Thank you for your comments though.

Ken Comer said...

What a loser sirkolgate was. Two hundred years of religious folks calling for physical assault on atheists and it still goes on. For the last dozen years, a small minority of Atheists start pointing out that religion, especially political fundamentalist Christianity, is a bad and harmful thing. When he is asked to organize vocal critics of his own that have advocated violence and hatred, he demands first that we calm the few of who call for logic and reason--albeit rudely and with profound disrespect--before he'll start. Yeah, that's fair.

The place is better without him.

Sadie Lou said...

ken comer--well you could have at least addressed what I said.
*wink*
How disappointing.

Cyberkitten, I don't think you could ever piss me off--not anymore. I think back in the early stages of our blogging friendship--maybe, but now I feel I know you too well and I feel I understand where you come from, generally, that nothing you say works me over. That being said,

sirkolgate--
Ease up! I thank you for the compliments and for standing by my comments but quite honestly, you overreacted to Cy's comment. He didn't mean it the way you took it--what he says is the truth! Religion has a lot of explaining to do if it wants the respect it so desires. A lot of BS was done in the name of Christ, unfortnately, and it is the job of Christ's followers to really live the life he calls us to.
We can't just stand on street corners and preach the gospel anymore--we actually have to LEAD by EXAMPLE. And the people who are the media's whores are leading alright, just in the opposite direction the rest of us Christians are going.
It's my job to talk to people--build relationships and be an example of Christ. I can pray. I can ask God to show me where he wants me to go--other than that--I just stand here with my hat in my hands--I am all things to all people. I want to meet them where they're at.
I'm not going to get angry anymore.
But it's also true that people believe in stereotypes. It's true that some people don't know when they see a fake. It's true that people love to believe the worst about Christians becase it suits they're world view--so not all the blame for the confusion rests on Christian fools--there are plenty of non Christian fools too.

Cyberkitten--
No worries--I wasn't offended and I'll always make time for your blog!

CyberKitten said...

Sadie said: Cyberkitten, I don't think you could ever piss me off--not anymore. I think back in the early stages of our blogging friendship--maybe, but now I feel I know you too well and I feel I understand where you come from, generally, that nothing you say works me over.

Good. I don't normally intend pissing people off - it just kinda happens. Maybe one day I'll manage to piss you off.... its normally just a matter of time. I can see why it happens sometimes as I can be a stubborn so & so and tend not to take many prisoners.

Does you knowing me well (or at least understanding me) mean that I can no longer surprise you? I'll certainly have to work on that...! [grin].

Sadie said: No worries--I wasn't offended and I'll always make time for your blog!

Thanks.

Sadie Lou said...

Good. I don't normally intend pissing people off - it just kinda happens. Maybe one day I'll manage to piss you off.... its normally just a matter of time. I can see why it happens sometimes as I can be a stubborn so & so and tend not to take many prisoners.

You're also pretty thick skinned, which is a good thing. I've seen people get really pissed at you and you never really match their steam--you always remain level headed and that's a good quality. Remember uberchap? Where's he been?

Does you knowing me well (or at least understanding me) mean that I can no longer surprise you? I'll certainly have to work on that...! [grin].

Hmmm...predictable you mean? Sometimes--more times than not.
(smile)
I read something in the paper and I think, "I know EXACTLY what cyberkitten would say about that."

CyberKitten said...

Sadie said: You're also pretty thick skinned, which is a good thing.

True. I used to get pretty upset by things in the past but I guess I've matured.

Sadie said: I've seen people get really pissed at you and you never really match their steam--you always remain level headed and that's a good quality.

I certainly do *try* to remain level headed. It's something that many people have said about me. "When all about me are losing their heads" etc... I think it's all to do with perspective - and I've learnt that keeping calm under attack *REALLY* pisses people off and 9/10 totally destroys their argument as the 'go off on one'.

Sadie said: Hmmm...predictable you mean? Sometimes--more times than not.

I'm *definitely* going to have to work on that! [grin]. [muses].

Sadie asked: Remember uberchap? Where's he been?

Dunno. Christians *do* have a habit of leaving my Blog in disgust after a while...... [chuckle].

Ken Comer said...

Regarding the fact that Christians are all branded with the iron as non-Christians calling themselves Christians, Sadie Lou said...
People will never, ever "get" that. Ever. [...] Maybe if enough people that claim to be Christian actually walk the talk then the people that do the loudest talking and don't walk the walk will eventually look like the fools they really are.

And quoted from my post that said... (i.e., from me, kencomer)
When we start hearing a groundswell of Christians decrying other Christians for promulgating the cause of ignorance and for being intolerant of others' beliefs, then you can start asking for the benefit of the doubt. I know that there are right-minded Christians. From what I see, they are vastly outnumbered. When you can point to evidence that says that your religion's adherents deserve the benefit of the doubt because they police their own, I'll be glad to listen.

Then Sadie Lou said:
You see? Media-Hound Christians will always be the "example" we Christians are held up to. People will absorb what they hear and see in the media and formulate opinions based on these limited examples. They will very rarely go around and talk to "real" Christians and then formulate opinions based on experience--not just what they digest in the news.

It's an uphill battle and I, for one, am weary of climbing...

...and quite frankly, what is the ultimate goal? I've had an atheist finally relent and say something like "Okay. It appears as though you don't belong to some nut-job church--"

Big freakin' deal!

The only thing that came from hours of dialog was that I was removed of my label--but I'm just one person! Does every Christian have to prove their sanity before minds are changed??

Sadie Lou then correctly pointed out that I had not responded to her on-topic reply to my post, a very legitimate criticism. Sorry, Sadie Lou. It was oversight, not slight.

To respond to the “Does every Christian have to prove their sanity before minds are changed?” directly: of course not. Let me share with you two recent personal examples of atheists who tried to just get silence on the subject of personal beliefs to promote familial harmony. These are real. I deleted the names, but I have the letters in my inbox. Note the dates. There are more in older inboxes. This is not rare or even very unusual. If you want to hear some of the things I've personally dealt with, I can provide.

Remember: I usually call myself an agnostic because I believe in using words like the dictionary does (most of the time, when talking to people on a semi-formal or formal level, in non-poetry, etc.), but most atheists consider me an atheist and most Christians would consider me a “god hating” atheist if they heard any detail about my beliefs in any detail. Because I call myself an agnostic, I don't have to deal with nearly as much crap that self-atheists (frequently incorrectly) do. Even given that, I still have lots of stories about how I've been insulted, ridiculed, shunned and treated with general disrespect. No threats because of the agnosticism (not yet; I have, however, frequently been threatened for other things, like pointing out obvious truths which sometimes touched on with religious people's beliefs).

BEGIN LETTERS vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

INTRO TO LETTER 1

FRIEND1 is in her late 50s and has been an atheist since her early 30s (after a period uf unknown duration of agnosticism toward the Christian faith). All of her parent's generation's family has died (parents, aunts, uncles, etc.) and all I have heard about were Christian and right-wingers.

LETTER 1
On 5/18/07, FRIEND1 wrote:

Now I've done it!! Over the years, my Kentucky cousins COUSIN1 and COUSIN2 regularly inundate me with silly e-mails, lots of angels, prayers, etc., and I have simply deleted them, often without reading them. But they are often bigoted and always annoying. Today, I couldn't let it pass... (my brother already knows how I feel, but I included him, too). These are intelligent, educated women, and I hate it that they are so... narrow-minded.

LOL. I don't know whether I'll be drummed out of the family or just prayed for... But, either way, it had to be done. *sigh*

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FRIEND1
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 12:10 PM
To: COUSIN1, COUSIN2, BROTHER
Subject: RE:
Frankly, it seems to me that there is way too much fighting done in God's name already, without encouraging more...

As an avowed atheist and supporter of the ACLU, I can't keep my silence in the name of family harmony any longer. I love you guys, but I am saddened every time I see such messages.

FRIEND1

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." --Steven Weinberg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments.
> He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of the courses had a
> professor who was a vowed atheist and a member of the ACLU.
>
> One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the
> ceiling and flatly stated, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me
> off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes."
>
>The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by
> and the professor proclaimed, "Here I am God. I'm still waiting." It got down
> to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his Chair, went up to
> the professor, and cold-c ocked him; knocking him off the platform.
> The professor was out cold.
>
> The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students
> were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence. The professor
> eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked,
> "What the he** is the matter with you? Why did you do that?"
>
> The Marine calmly replied, "God was too busy today protecting America's
> soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid shi* and act like an
> a**hole. So, He sent me."
>
> THIS IS GOOD, KEEP IT GOING.
END OF LETTER 1

INTRO TO LETTER 2

FRIEND2 had been being badgered by J--, the nephew she dotes on, who was trying to convince her that the world was less than 6,000 years old—to change her view to his. FRIEND2 and HER HUSBAND are both cat lovers who feel about their cats almost(?) like their family. Spot was a cat who died recently. Here's what happened when FRIEND2 asked her sister to oolitcay with the eligiousray ealotryzay.

LETTER 2
From: FRIEND2
Sent: Fri 5/25/2007 6:07 PM
To: MY HOUSEMATE; FRIEND1; ME
Cc: HER HUSBAND
Subject: The almighty church of intolerance and disrespect, part deux

So, despite asking for them to reign J-- in, we got another lovely email
from him this afternoon. I responded to him much in the manner that
FRIEND1 suggested....that not everyone believes the way he does but that we'd
talk about it when he's older. I also told him that I respect his right (and
his parents') to believe as he does and wished that he could respect our
beliefs.

I then placed the dreaded call to my totally obstinate, irrational,
hotheaded sister R-- and asked her jokingly to please "un-sic the hounds".

As I fully knew would happen, the conversation went quickly downhill.

Here are some of the highlights:

1. We were told being sad and depressed about Spot's death was pathetic. She
actually said this pretty much verbatim. Grief, obviously, is not an allowed
emotion for non-believers. And, I guess, empathy is not in a believer's
emotional bag of tricks. I'm not sure exactly was she was driving at but I
can imagine that it has something to do with an afterlife. In fact, I know
this is what she meant because I told her I believe in a kitty heaven (which
I do, as irrational as this sounds). To which she responded: too bad, you're
not getting in anyway. According to her, there's only one way into heaven.
So now, following this logic, do CATS BELIEVE IN JESUS?????

2. We were told that we live sad, depressing lives (not sure if it's related
to #1) and that we're going to hell.

3. She pulled the "if I'm wrong then at least I'm not going to hell" but if
"you're wrong, you'll burn for eternity" logic.

4. We were told that they cannot respect nor accept our right to believe in
what we do. Thus, they do not want us around their children.

Bottom line: we're uninvited for vacation. And basically have been kicked
out of their lives.

I just love the values they're instilling in these children.

Intolerance. Disrespect. Fear.

FRIEND2

END OF LETTER 2
END OF LETTERS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I already said that I know a bunch of stand-up Christians, but even my own family has included “Christians” of intolerance and, in my opinion, non-Christian ways. It might still... I do not keep up with the gossip about family members who completely ostracized me once I made it clear that I would not be party to any religious ceremonies or celebrations. (I've since lightened up on Christmas, but it's a originally a pagan holiday and pagans and wiccans are generally tolerant of non-believers who are tolerant of them. Besides, most of my Atheist friends like trading gifts once a year.) To Hell with them. I do not notice their absence in my life any more.

I had problems being barraged in friendly and unfriendly ways on the part of the family that includes 2 missionaries (you think they'd tolerate non-belief, wouldn't you?), a preacher, the principal of a Christian school he started, two ex-youth ministers (one who was also a Christian marriage counselor), a professional Christian church choir director and their immediate families, and I let them know how I felt. I did not call them superstitious propaganda-spreaders, I just told them that I would not be subjected to any more attempts to “save” me, nor would I sit in on prayers, sermons, denouncement of sinners like homosexuals, etc. They were a little excessive on their implementation of my requested treatment (by not associating with me at all, they surely granted my request), but that was their choice.

I do not expect all Christians to be saints, nor do I expect them all to be model Christians. I'd settle for tolerance, a toning down of Christian factions' attempts to legislate their morality on the rest of the population and a vocal intolerance of intolerance. It is sad that non-Christians have to be rude in the way that they attest to the deficiencies of main-stream Christians (especially the fundamentalists, who are underrepresented among the “TV Christians” from what I've seen in Texas, Louisiana and North Carolina) in order to get their views across, but almost all “freethinkers” have been “preaching” tolerance all of our lives, and we get spit for our efforts. I have had letters to the editor published who took out the “use tolerance instead” part of my letters in order to focus my generalizations about Christians in my area of Texas and in government policy “in the interest of brevity”, so I am not at all convinced that the news about them and what they say is not misrepresented. I know that militant atheists can be caustic, though—no argument on that. Even those of us smart enough to admit that we simply do not know about first causes or the existences of unseen creatures that influence our lives (though you can probably tell from the way I say it how probable I feel it is that religion can supply an answer on either issue) get grief from the hard-core atheists. Most so-called atheists do not meet the dictionary requirement of affirming the non-existence of gods, but they criticize me when I say that I am completely ignorant of whether there exists one or more gods and what, if any, evidence exists about the first causes of the universe. (Aside: I'm pretty skeptical on the Big Bang cosmology—any explanation that requires a statement of “the Universe had completely different properties that varied on one or more of the following: a variable speed of light, a completely different or rapidly varying universal constant, no gravity, a radically different shape [than what? We do not even know what shape it is today!], or a rapidly changing size—is basically saying “and here, Magic happened” so far as I am concerned. I am also pretty skeptical of the Standard Model being the be-all and end-all of physics so long as it posits that 85+% of the energy and I-forget-how-much-but-it-is-a-lot% of the mass is undetectable by all means. If I scoff at the idea of undetectable beings, why should I not scoff at a theory that requires undetectable mass and energy in such large proportion? The predictive value of both theories are intertwined and seemingly coming unraveled. Every day, physicists who do not take the Standard Model for granted are finding more data that does not quite fit, and the information from COBE seems to poke many small holes in the Big Bang Theory.)

I am personally non-militant in my agnosticism/atheism, but I am aggressive when people start badmouthing atheists and agnostics When they bad-mouth atheism, that's another matter. I either politely engage them in friendly rational conversation or I ridicule their statements, depending on context. I am generally very careful not to insult other people directly (calling someone a “loser” who walks out in the middle of a civilized debate is not insult, but fact), but I feel free to say whatever I want about whatever they say. People frequently get insulted by facts, especially when expressed with obvious amusement and maybe a smidgen of condescension. And maybe more than a smidgen, depending.

When theists bad-mouth agnosticism, I have to try hard not to be rude in pointing out there is no way that an agnostic (under the more common denotations and connotations of the word) can be too far wrong...This is not because I have a problem controlling my anger or my speech. It's because it is impossible for a person to be wrong in claiming ignorance about the claims of religion (unless he is Alberto Gonzales, who claimed ignorance so often that one would think he were Ronald Reagan or George W Bush). Even the (sane) theists admit that their beliefs require believing in things which cannot be directly and conclusively proven.

So sirkolgate was comparing my call for stand-up Christians to mount a vocal opposition to the large, well-financed, irrational, intolerant and more than occasionally hateful “Christian organizations” would only be fair after I/we had reined in our own and you, Sadie Lou, are saying that it is unfair to group you with the “Christians” who do not “walk the walk”. First off, YOU, Sadie Lou, have earned the benefit of the doubt. Sirkolgate was tried and found wanting (mene mene tekel upharsin), at least in my eyes.

For the rest... Let me point out that the same basic text is used by all “Christians” (most Bibles have had the unicorns edited out these days), the same basic “through Christ, all sins are washed away” and “if you do follow Christ, your morals are inherently non-Christian (and therefore implicitly dubious)” doctrine is held in common among all of you, and all of you use the same basic symbols to represent yourselves. When there is a long tradition and large faction among Christians—I would say an overwhelming majority, both in post-Gutenberg past and present—of intolerance, hate and violence toward atheists and agnostics... When the very word “atheist” is frequently used as a pejorative by spokespersons for large Christian (and right-wing) organizations...Why should Christians be given the benefit of the doubt? If I put ten old pennies and five new ones into a bag, am I being unfair when I say that most of the time I pick from the bag, I am likely to get the old pennies?

Maybe you could ask your fellow theists to adopt a symbol that means you do not think that Christian rules should apply to us, and that you openly oppose those who would (and do) oppress us. Maybe you could all wear a cross with a few circles on it, or a cross on a planet. Since the fish is now used mostly among those who promote some variation of explanation that goes against the Theory of Evolution and those who seek to legislate their morals as my laws, perhaps you should convince your people to shun it or even adopt some symbol that shows you flatly reject it, maybe a Darwin fish superimposed over a crucifix...After all, the fish is a relic of the time when Christians were the persecuted, not the persecutors.

I've never heard about Christian militants for tolerance. Only the other kind. Give me a way to tell at a glance whether a Christian is a bigot, an ignorant fool who has not even read his the Bible he thumps so loudly, or someone who is trying to force his/her/its beliefs on others, and I'll definitely start assuming that THOSE Christians are looking out for my interests instead of my soul or my freedoms. I'm easy when I can find an excuse to be so.

Failing that, assume that I do understand that not all the people who call themselves Christian are representing all Christians, then assume that I am correct in assuming that they're more often than not the same bad penny coming back 'round to curse me again.

Sadie Lou said...

Thanks for the head's up about this comment. I have to get the kids off to school and then I have some things to get done but when my little son goes down for a nap--I'll be back.
Let me just preface my comment now, by saying "wow" and "well done".
~S

Ken Comer said...

In another world, I'd probably have been a preacher, heh.