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Monday, June 11, 2007

Is Atheism Just a Rant Against Religion?

By Benedicta Cipolla for The Washington Post

Saturday, May 26, 2007

Despite its minority status, atheism has enjoyed the spotlight of late, with several books that feature vehement arguments against religion topping the bestseller lists. But some now say secularists should embrace more than the strident rhetoric poured out in such books as "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and "The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris. By devoting so much space to explaining why religion is bad, these critics argue, atheists leave little room for explaining how a godless worldview can be good. At a recent conference marking the 30th anniversary of Harvard's humanist chaplaincy, organizers sought to distance the "new humanism" from the "new atheism."

Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein went so far as to use the (other) f-word in describing his unbelieving brethren. "At times they've made statements that sound really problematic, and when Sam Harris says science must destroy religion, to me that sounds dangerously close to fundamentalism," Epstein said in an interview after the meeting. "What we need now is a voice that says, 'That is not all there is to atheism.' " Although the two can overlap, atheism represents a statement about the absence of belief and is thus defined by what it is not. Humanism seeks to provide a positive, secular framework for leading ethical lives and contributing to the greater good. The term "humanist" emerged with the "Humanist Manifesto" of 1933, a nonbinding document summarizing the movement's principles.

"Atheists are somewhat focused on the one issue of atheism, not looking at how to move forward," said Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the Washington-based American Humanist Association. While he appreciates the way the new atheists have raised the profile of nonbelievers, he said humanists differ by their willingness to collaborate with religious leaders on various issues. "Working with religion," he said, "is not what [atheists] are about." The Harvard event linked via video to a conference on global warming at the Baptist-affiliated Samford University in Birmingham, Ala. Addressing both meetings was biologist E.O. Wilson, whose book, "The Creation," urges the faith community to join the environmental movement.

Even as he complimented the "military wing of secularism" for combating the intrusion of dogma into political and private life, he told his audience that religious people "are more likely to pay attention to that hand of friendship offered to them . . . than to have suggested to them, let us say, Richard Dawkins's 'The God Delusion,' which sets out to carpet-bomb all religion." In his book, Dawkins likens philosopher Michael Ruse, a Florida State University professor who has worked on the creationism/evolution debate in public schools, to Neville Chamberlain, the British prime minister best known for his appeasement policy toward Nazi Germany. Ruse, in turn, accuses "militant atheism" of not extending the same professional and academic courtesy to religion that it demands from others. Atheism's new dogmatic streak is not that different from the religious extremists it calls to task, he said. Dawkins was traveling and unavailable for comment. The suggestion that atheists may be fundamentalists in their own right has, unsurprisingly, ruffled feathers.

"We're not a unified group," said Christopher Hitchens, author of the latest atheist bestseller, "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything." "But we're of one mind on this: The only thing that counts is free inquiry, science, research, the testing of evidence, the uses of reason, irony, humor and literature, things of this kind. Just because we hold these convictions rather strongly does not mean this attitude can be classified as fundamentalist," Hitchens said. Distinguishing between strong opinion and trying to impose atheism on others, Phil Zuckerman, associate professor of sociology at Pitzer College in Claremont, Calif., also finds "fundamentalist" a misnomer. Instead, he faults atheists for preferring black-and-white simplicity to a more nuanced view of religion. "Religion is a human construction, and as such it will exhibit the best and worst of humanity. They throw the baby out with the bath water in certain instances," he said.

The humanists are taking advantage of renewed interest in atheism -- in effect riding the coattails of Dawkins and Harris into the mainstream -- to gain attention for their big-tent model. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, conducted by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, the share of American adults who do not subscribe to any religion increased from 8 percent in 1990 to more than 14 percent in 2001. While only a small portion of the nearly 30 million "unaffiliateds" might describe themselves as atheist, Epstein, from Harvard, sees humanism appealing to skeptics, agnostics and those who maintain only cultural aspects of religion. A common critique of the new atheism is that it conflates belief with religiosity. In his research, Zuckerman has found that people may be outwardly religious not simply because they believe, but also because they're looking for community and solace within congregations. More than a kinder, gentler strain of atheism, humanism seeks to propose a more expansive worldview.

"Atheists don't really ask the question, what are the vital needs that religion meets? They give you the sense that religion is the enemy, which is absurd," said Ronald Aronson, professor of humanities at Wayne State University in Detroit. "There are some questions we secularists have to answer: Who am I, what am I, what can I know? Unless we can answer these questions adequately for ourselves and for others, we can't expect people to even begin to be interested in living without God."

[Showing – yet again for people who missed it the first time – that so-called radical, hard-line or “fundamentalist” atheists are most certainly not above criticism from the Secular Community….. as if they would be.]

15 comments:

dbackdad said...

Yawn. This growing criticism of atheism is getting tiring. It grows out of the perpetual mistake made by those of faith to make atheism into a religion. As such, they want it to provide a similar moral framework as religion supposedly does. That's not what atheism is. It's the absence of faith ... that simple. Of course, there are many atheists (including Dawkins) who seek to provide some simple guidelines that they may use in their own life. Humanism certainly seeks to fill that role. But most of these books they mention are not trying to create a new philosophy or religion ... they are providing a scientific and logical refutation of religion. If that hurts someone's feelings, then tough tittie.

I consider myself a Humanist, but some of these people that speak on behalf of Humanists are little whiners.

And I agree with Hitchens about atheists not being a "unified group". It's kinda like herding cats. But isn't that the point? We're not beholden to any one book or myth, so there is going to be disagreement. And that's OK.

The Aronson guys said, "Atheists don't really ask the question, what are the vital needs that religion meets?" -- Is he serious? To honestly say that atheists aren't asking themselves about the meaning of life, about fellowship, about our place in the world? What an ass. A big reason why a lot of people are atheists is because they asked themselves those very questions and it was religion that came up short.

Juggling Mother said...

I don't consider myself a humanist. I don't consider myself an anything - is that really such a difficult concept to understand?

Actually, I think this article rather demonstrates that humans will find a way to divide themselves whatever. So much for the argument that religion causes wars and without it we'd all be peaceful happy bunnies huh:-)

Unknown said...

When I first read the article, I found myself thinking that the case that atheists like Dawkins makes is vastly overstated. Yes, he seeks to destroy religion . . . in the sense of non-violently convincing it's adherents that a secular viewpoint is altogether better for all things than a religious viewpoint. Which it is. But the terms that get used are things like "carpetbombing". Peeps, he's writing some books, none of which advocate violence.

And the other thing that these sorts of articles ignore is that non-belief is growing pretty rapidly. The heart of "Christian" Europe has been hollowed out. Most people in Western Europe simply don't believe in any god at all. If we measured the numbers of atheists in the world, and the growth of atheism in the world, we'd find it radically outstrips the growth of any mere religion. So Prof. Aronson is quite a bit wrong -- in most of the industrialized world, people are in fact quite content to live without any gods.

CyberKitten said...

dbackdad said: they want it to provide a similar moral framework as religion supposedly does. That's not what atheism is. It's the absence of faith ... that simple.

That's true. Atheism is nothing more than a sceptical position in regard to the matter of the existence of God. There are philosophical consequences *because* of that stance but they are not one and the same.

dbackdad said: A big reason why a lot of people are atheists is because they asked themselves those very questions and it was religion that came up short.

Very true. I've read quite a few (often moving) accounts of how people lost their faith because of the awkward questions they just coundn't resolve inside their own faith. I consider myself one of the lucky ones who didn't have a faith to lose in the first place!

It does surprise me though that fellow Secularists can give outspoken atheists so much grief. People like Dawkins are 'deep' atheists and are proudly vocal of the fact. I can't see how its doing the Secular Community a great deal of harm - though it *does* draw a lot of attention...

JM said: Actually, I think this article rather demonstrates that humans will find a way to divide themselves whatever. So much for the argument that religion causes wars and without it we'd all be peaceful happy bunnies huh.

Very true. We are masters at finding something to fight about - no matter how trivial or downright silly.

chris B said: But the terms that get used are things like "carpetbombing". Peeps, he's writing some books, none of which advocate violence.

Indeed. A rather extreme reaction I thought.

chris B said: And the other thing that these sorts of articles ignore is that non-belief is growing pretty rapidly. The heart of "Christian" Europe has been hollowed out. Most people in Western Europe simply don't believe in any god at all.

It certainly seems that way. The only 'western' country where religion does not appear to be in decline is the USA. Christianity in particular seems to be in terminal decline in the UK and Scandinavian countries IIRC.

chris B said: So Prof. Aronson is quite a bit wrong -- in most of the industrialized world, people are in fact quite content to live without any gods.

...and about time too [grin].

Skywolf said...

They may not be 'fundamentalists', but people like Dawkins are certainly extreme in their views. And is extremism ever a good thing? Dawkins thinks theists are wrong. They think he is wrong. One way or the other, someone is wrong, right? So surely extremism either way is only ever a bad thing?

I think anyone who is that completely closed off from the alternative viewpoint of a subject that certainly cannot be proven either way isn't doing themselves (or the less extreme people who follow similar views) any favours.

I yet to read any Dawkins. I'd really like to... but his vehement stance somewhat puts me off. I don't want to be preached to by anyone - religious or non-religious.

CyberKitten said...

skywolf said: They may not be 'fundamentalists', but people like Dawkins are certainly extreme in their views.

They're certainly on the edge of public atheist opinion, yes....

skywolf said: Dawkins thinks theists are wrong.

So do I....

skywolf said: They think he is wrong. One way or the other, someone is wrong, right?

Well, they could both be wrong....

skywolf said: I think anyone who is that completely closed off from the alternative viewpoint of a subject that certainly cannot be proven either way isn't doing themselves (or the less extreme people who follow similar views) any favours.

I'm not sure if it can be taken for granted that the issue cannot be settled one way or the other. I for one don't rule out a definitive answer. I'm not sure how you would *arrive* at such an answer - but I don't think it should be ruled out. I find it easy to dismiss the theist viewpoint - as do many theists find it easy to dismiss atheism. I think that we can (and should) understand each others position but I doubt very much if we'd ever actually *agree* with each other.

skywolf said: I yet to read any Dawkins. I'd really like to... but his vehement stance somewhat puts me off. I don't want to be preached to by anyone - religious or non-religious.

I recommend starting off with his early biology stuff then - maybe 'The selfish Gene'... It's the book that made me a confirmed Darwinist.

Skywolf said...

Yes... I do fancy reading The Selfish Gene. It's been on my 'one day...' list for some time.

Perhaps we can't rule out never knowing one way or the other, but as things stand at the moment there's no known proof either way. At the end of the day, whether you're a theist or an atheist, you believe something. The thing is, I personally think strong atheists have the beliefs (or lack of, if you like) that they do through sense and reasoning, whereas strong theists have the beliefs they do through faith and personal experience (be it direct or second-hand from the influential people in their lives). At this stage in my life, the sense and reasoning arguments make a lot more sense to me.

But, as I have said before, just because science doesn't have an answer for something yet doesn't mean it will never have that answer. We still have a lot to learn. I just don't think anything should be written off completely, one way or the other. We shouldn't be so afraid to admit that we simply don't know all the answers - whichever side of the fence we're on.

Juggling Mother said...

skywolf said: They may not be 'fundamentalists', but people like Dawkins are certainly extreme in their views"

I think the difficulty is that extremeists like Dawkins give the lie to theists that atheists fill up their "faith" hold with "anti-faith. My Faith hole doesn't need to be filled imo. I think about my lack of faith in God as often as I think about my lack of faith in Zeus, and it has as little impact on my life and lifestyle.

Obviously if soemone starts discussing Zeus with me, i thinlk about their beliefs in contrast to mine for the duration of the conversation, and then I forget all about him again:-)

Dawkins gives the impression, which the theists really like because they understand it, that atheism is an active faith for him, something that he uses every day as part of his lifestyle/decision making processes. And that is where his "extremism" comes from. Anything that effects the way we think bout every action, decision and optionavailable to us will be seen as extremists by anyone who does not share those views.

CyberKitten said...

skywolf said: Perhaps we can't rule out never knowing one way or the other, but as things stand at the moment there's no known proof either way.

True. But there'a a *lot* more pointing to Gods non-existence than there is *to* His existence.

skywolf said: At the end of the day, whether you're a theist or an atheist, you believe something.

Well, strictly speaking atheism is a *lack* of belief in a particular something.

skywolf said: At this stage in my life, the sense and reasoning arguments make a lot more sense to me.

Ditto - as the theist 'arguments' make almost no sense to me.

skywolf said: I just don't think anything should be written off completely, one way or the other. We shouldn't be so afraid to admit that we simply don't know all the answers - whichever side of the fence we're on.

True. I cannot state with 100% confidence that God does not exist. I don't know that for certain. That's why I say that I do not believe in His existence rather than saying simply that God does not exist. He might.

JM said: Anything that effects the way we think bout every action, decision and optionavailable to us will be seen as extremists by anyone who does not share those views.

Quite possibly. I certainly think that the views of Richard Dawkins are on the edge of the public face of atheism - but I don't consider them to be particularly extreme. Its just probably that we're not used to people being publically so strong in their assertion of a *lack* of faith - especially in the USA.

Ken Comer said...

CyberKitten said...

skywolf said: Perhaps we can't rule out never knowing one way or the other, but as things stand at the moment there's no known proof either way.

CK: True. But there'a a *lot* more pointing to Gods non-existence than there is *to* His existence.

I got a good book for my birthday. It's not what I thought it would be, but you can't judge a book by its cover, eh? It's What is Your Dangerous Idea? edited by john brockman, and it is a collection of 1-4 page essays about ideas that people think are dangerous. It's a mixed bag, but there's some good reads in there. On p. 147 it has a nice essay entitled, "On the Posterior Probability of Any God" which points out that, with all of the different definitions of the "G" word (singular and plural forms), the chance of any particular one of them being the real one is pretty darned small. Of course, he fails to mention that the "Ken Comer is God" definition is beyond question, but most people do.

skywolf said: At the end of the day, whether you're a theist or an atheist, you believe something.

CK: Well, strictly speaking atheism is a *lack* of belief in a particular something.

Whoooooa! CK, do you remember our brief chat about "agnosticism awareness"? Strictly speaking (according to just about all printed dictionaries and most of those online), atheism is a disbelief in god(s). Agnosticism is a lack of belief, not atheism. In my checking up on the subject, I can safely say that, by common denotations, most so-called "atheists" I have spoken with--everyone but you--report themselves to have belief systems that are more accurately referred to as agnosticism. When confronted by the facts, the universal answer (from my sample of n=15), "all dictionaries that do not say that atheism is a lack of belief are wrong".

By the bye--I'll stick in my oar: I think that religiosity is heritable, and we will not have universal atheism/agnosticism unless the human race decides that religiosity is a genetic defect and engineers it out of the gene pool. I think that would be a mistake... Believing impossible things can make one able to achieve (otherwise) impossible goals. Inspiration is where you find it.

Skywolf said...

CK: True. I cannot state with 100% confidence that God does not exist. I don't know that for certain. That's why I say that I do not believe in His existence rather than saying simply that God does not exist. He might.

And this, to me, is the most rational viewpoint. It's hard for me to comment objectively, not having read Dawkins, but it seems to me that he is saying that God doesn't exist. Not that he most probably doesn't exist. This is why I find his stance a little hard to listen to. What I have seen of his views seems to point to a hard, black-and-white viewpoint, diametrically opposed to the hard, black-and-white viewpoint of religious extremists. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here... maybe Dawkins doesn't actually say this. I'm just going by what little I have seen and heard of his thoughts.)

I firmly believe there has to be room for grey areas in life. Refusing to acknowledge those grey areas rarely does a person any favours, IMO.

CyberKitten said...

skywolf said: It's hard for me to comment objectively, not having read Dawkins, but it seems to me that he is saying that God doesn't exist. Not that he most probably doesn't exist.

Dawkins certainly disputes the existence of God and, like me, sees no evidence of any Creator in the natural world or in the Universe at large. As far as I know he does not assert (and assertion is all that it would be) that God does not exist. I understand that his point of view is that the probability of the existence of God is so vanishingly small that it can be, for all intents and purposes, be dismissed as having any relevance to the way we go about our lives. This I also agree with.

CyberKitten said...

Ken c said: Strictly speaking (according to just about all printed dictionaries and most of those online), atheism is a disbelief in god(s).

Agreed. I was being a bit...'soft' with my definition. Although there is probably an atheist continuum from lack of belief to active disbelief and beyond. But yes, atheism is skepticism on the God question. When God (or any supernatural force) is mentioned an atheists response would normally be: I don't believe you.

Ken c said: Agnosticism is a lack of belief, not atheism.

Not really. Agnosticism comes from the Greek gnosis which means knowledge. An "a-gnostic" is someone 'without knowledge' or someone who believes that we can never know whether there is a God or not. They are, in effect, sitting on the fence not willing to commit themselves one way of the other - rather than having even a passive disbelief..

Ken c said: I think that religiosity is heritable, and we will not have universal atheism/agnosticism unless the human race decides that religiosity is a genetic defect and engineers it out of the gene pool.

I don't agree. 'Belief' is probably hardwired into our brains. The form of that belief is cultural. If we had a universal secular humanist culture then I think very few people would believe in God or the Supernatural. Being religious is not a natural part of the human condition any more than being democratic or communist... though maybe being political - in its broadest sense - is...

Ken c said: Believing impossible things can make one able to achieve (otherwise) impossible goals. Inspiration is where you find it.

Very true. If we didn't believe we could 'achieve the impossible' then we wouldn't have built things like the Pyramids or maybe the first nuclear bomb. We can be inspired to do great things or terrible things because of what we believe in.

Ken Comer said...

Ken c said: Agnosticism is a lack of belief, not atheism.

Cyberkitten replied: Not really. Agnosticism comes from the Greek gnosis which means knowledge. An "a-gnostic" is someone 'without knowledge' or someone who believes that we can never know whether there is a God or not.

I know what the roots of the words are... I speak three languages and a smattering of five others. I think we dealt with this before, but let me lay the issue to rest completely!

"Petard" comes from the word for "fart" in French. The common usage has nothing to do with its roots. The same for "atheist".

I specifically referred to dictionaries and denotations. Can you cite three dictionaries in print that back up your assertion about broad usage of the words? How about on-line? (I specify "three" because I know that there are two "at least kind of real" on-line dictionaries that use atheism in the sense that you use it. One of those is the Wikipedia and it also listed four more common definitions. The other was an atheist dictionary site. At last check, these were the only two on-line definitions which agreed with you.) I gave you a link before to at least 6 on-line that showed my point (and can dig it up again if need be) and can easily point to more than 3 printed dictionaries that show my point.

Cyberkitten: They are, in effect, sitting on the fence not willing to commit themselves one way of the other - rather than having even a passive disbelief..

I *despise* being called a fence-sitter. It implies being unwilling to make a commitment because of a lack of integrity, a state of confusion, apathy and/or indecisiveness. I cannot think of any sense where it is not pejorative or derogatory in connotation.

Saying that it is impossible to know the first causes of the universe (at least at present) is nothing but common sense. Please, do not bring up the "Big Bang" nonsense: any "science" predicated on the assumptions that the current universe had dramatically different and/or rapidly fluctuating cosmological constants (e.g., the speed of light) and relations (e.g., gravity, electroweak forces), or that more than 85% of the mass and energy in the universe is completely undetectable is little better than saying "and then magic happened" or "God did it". If the Big Bang happens to be correct, the current forms in broad (but narrowing) acceptance could never be tested in this physical universe. The Big Bang is little more than a petard, these days.

Saying that one could *prove* that gods do not exist is stupid because a theist could make one of the fundamental characteristics of the god include "unable to be proven with any material observation or empirical test". It is much more intellectually honest and accurate to say that the existence of a particular god can neither be proved nor disproved.

I think it is much more likely that no gods exist (other than maybe the "card gods") than otherwise. I simply put forth that it is impossible to state that it can be proven that all gods do not exist or that there exists at least one god that exists.

I go further than some atheists do in regard to disbelief: I believe that it is possible to state unequivocally that the sacred works of some religions (e.g. Catholocism) have too many holes and too many contradictions in them to be said to describe a "real" god. I disbelieve in a Catholic god, but am unable to say that there is not a single "God" (note capital) that foreordained all of creation.

I feel that an apology is owed to me and to all of those with the moral courage to admit that we simply cannot know. We are not "unwilling to commit". I, for one, have committed myself very consciously to the *third* side of the debate: it is impossible to know.

CyberKitten uttered:
I don't agree. 'Belief' is probably hardwired into our brains. The form of that belief is cultural. If we had a universal secular humanist culture then I think very few people would believe in God or the Supernatural. Being religious is not a natural part of the human condition any more than being democratic or communist... though maybe being political - in its broadest sense - is...

I see. You do not agree that religiosity is heritable, but you believe that belief is heritable. Hmm. Depending on how you use the word "belief", you could be making my case for me.

The chain of definitions to derive the actual semantic value of "religiosity" stems from religion, one of whose denotations is, [WordNet] "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; 'he lost his faith but not his morality'" Stevie Wonder's classic statement of "when you believe in things that you don't understand, that's superstition" fairly well sums up religiosity for me. The human mind is rigged to look for patterns, and studies like the Minnesota Twins study have shown that this willingness to attribute events in life to the agency of a higher power appears to have a strong genetic basis.

I have an atheist friend (disbeliever, not "lack of belief"er) who thinks that there is a kitty heaven. She is quite sincere and points out that this belief has no place in a logical weltanshauung, but she believes that there must be some sort of immortality for cats.

I think that this reflects a moderate "religiosity". She makes two irrational observations: 1) cats are immortal; and 2) there are no unseen forces affected by the position and utilization of our juicy bits. The latter is not irrational when it is merely a strong doubt, but becomes irrational when it is asserted as absolute certainty.

So, while I agree that it is likely that religiosity would take different forms in a wholly secular culture, I think that it would be present in some form as a means to explain the incomprehensible and the unknowable.

CyberKitten said...

WoooooW... Ken... I seem to have touched a raw nerve there!

Ken said: I know what the roots of the words are... I speak three languages and a smattering of five others.

That's very impressive. I get by in my Mother tongue....

Ken asked: Can you cite three dictionaries in print that back up your assertion about broad usage of the words?

I'm not particularly interested in swapping dictionary definitions of words....

Ken said: I *despise* being called a fence-sitter. It implies being unwilling to make a commitment because of a lack of integrity, a state of confusion, apathy and/or indecisiveness. I cannot think of any sense where it is not pejorative or derogatory in connotation.

The way *I* meant it is to say that they are either unable or unwilling to come down on either side of the issue. I see nothing derogatory in this. These is nothing 'wrong' in being undecided on an issue - especially one like the existence or otherwise of God. If you think that there is insufficient evidence to say one way or another - hey, that's fine. I just think that there is enough *lack* of evidence FOR the existence of God to make my disbelief concrete enough. Other people - including yourself apparently - do not consider this lack of evidence enough.

This from Mark Vernon - "When it comes to the scientific worldview, a lust for certainty is manifest in different ways. Think of the way that some atheists go on at great length about the need to throw off superstitious belief and don the freedom and reason of the Enlightenment. What they will not accept is what the inventor of the word "agnostic" sought to highlight. TH Huxley meant his neologism as a rebuke to all who peddle their opinions as facts - notably their opinion, scientific or religious, about God. For whether or not God exists is neither proven nor, he thought, provable. God just isn't that kind of concept" .

Huxley himself - who invented the word Agnostic - considered the question to be basically unproven and unprovable. Hence the inability of saying one way or another whether God exists or not. This is certainly a reasonable position if you believe that some questions (and particularly this question) do not have an answer.

Ken said: Saying that it is impossible to know the first causes of the universe (at least at present) is nothing but common sense.

I don't agree. All you are saying is that we don't know the answer - yet. It is not an impossible question - though we may be asking the wrong questions to arrive at an answer. At the moment all that we can say is that we don't know what, if anything, caused the Universe to come into existence. Personally I have no problem with that. As to all that 'dark' stuff. It does seem like clutching at straws... but we do seem to be accumulating evidence for it... slowly.

Ken said: It is much more intellectually honest and accurate to say that the existence of a particular god can neither be proved nor disproved.

I am of the belief (and it is a belief) that there are no un-answerable questions. I see no reason why the question of the existence of God could not theoretically be answered. Maybe we've just been thinking about it the wrong way? I don't think that the God question - or any question - should forever be regarded as beyond human understanding. That, I think, is unreasonable.

ken said: I feel that an apology is owed to me and to all of those with the moral courage to admit that we simply cannot know. We are not "unwilling to commit". I, for one, have committed myself very consciously to the *third* side of the debate: it is impossible to know.

I don't think that I owe anyone an apology. Do you owe *me* an aplogy for implying that I do not have the 'moral courage' to regonise that we cannot know about Gods existence? Hardly. We are simply of two different opinions on the matter. You consider that it is impossible to know. I do not. To make things clear I am not saying that I *know* the answer one way or another. I am not saying that I *know* that God does not exist. I'm saying that I consider the lack of evidence for His existence to be compelling enough for me to *disbelieve* in His existence. If new evidence (or better argument) is brought to my attention then it is quite possible that I could change my mind on the issue.

ken said: So, while I agree that it is likely that religiosity would take different forms in a wholly secular culture, I think that it would be present in some form as a means to explain the incomprehensible and the unknowable.

Quite possibly. We are after all human and therefore irrational beings. It's hardly surprising that we use irrational concepts to explain the apparently inexplicable. It's just that when they are eventually explained the irrational explanation usually turns out to be the wrong one.