I guess I missed Part 2. Cyberkitten, I hope you don't watch these videos and nod your head in agreement the whole time. The misinformation, assumptions, and outright lies about faith and organized religion is really too much for me to simply tackle one at a time. Besides, I don't think the energy I spend on doing such a thing will be worth it. The worst part of this video and the scariest thing about Atheism is that the narrator said to have faith in the human race and then later he says, "what if I told you there was no such thing as sin?" Then he goes on to say that Christians just go about their lives (sinning) knowing they will be forgiven later. How can you have faith in men and then disprove sin? Why are men so horribly disgusting to each other? Take religion completely out of the equation and look at the many reasons men commit crimes against each other than have nothing to do with religion--like rape or kidnapping. How can I have faith in men?
It's at the bottom of the page if you want to check it out.
Sadie said: I hope you don't watch these videos and nod your head in agreement the whole time.
Pretty much, yes.
Sadie said: The worst part of this video and the scariest thing about Atheism is that the narrator said to have faith in the human race and then later he says, "what if I told you there was no such thing as sin?"
I have *some* 'faith' in the human race (though probably not as much as it sounds like the narrator has) and I definitely don't believe in 'sin' (which is a crime against God is it not?)
Sadie said: Then he goes on to say that Christians just go about their lives (sinning) knowing they will be forgiven later.
He might have been talking about Catholics here....
Sadie asked: How can you have faith in men and then disprove sin?
I don't think he 'disproved' sin, I think he just said that he didn't believe in it. I agree with him.
Sadie asked: Why are men so horribly disgusting to each other?
Good question. Probably lots or reasons. Partially its in our nature, partially its because we're brought up that way.
Sadie said: Take religion completely out of the equation and look at the many reasons men commit crimes against each other than have nothing to do with religion--like rape or kidnapping.
Indeed. Many things we do, both good and bad, have nothing to do with religion.
Sadie asked: How can I have faith in men?
I think that as a species we're pretty dispicable on *so* many levels. You just have to know a bit of history to see that. However, on an individual level the vast majority of people I've met in my lifetime have been OK or better than OK and I don't think I'm alone in that. Humans are capable of committing great wrongs but (knowing history again) we are also capable of greatness too.
As a skeptic my 'faith' in mankind is rather limited but they do keep surprising me. Maybe if we survive long enough we might eventually get 'our act together' and stop all the badness. Not going to happen in either of our lifetimes though...!
Maybe if we survive long enough we might eventually get 'our act together' and stop all the badness. Not going to happen in either of our lifetimes though...!
We've been here long enough to know there is nothing new under the sun. The crimes we commited against each other from the start are the same crimes we commit today and without abandon. No, I don't have faith in man and it is God's common grace that keeps us from completely destroying ourselves. If he were to stop loving his creation--it wouldn't be long until we killed each other off.
Sadie said: No, I don't have faith in man and it is God's common grace that keeps us from completely destroying ourselves. If he were to stop loving his creation--it wouldn't be long until we killed each other off.
His grace doesn't seem to be working very well at the moment does it?
We're not going to be around forever and in many ways the world would be better off without us. Again its something that is unlikely in our lifetimes so I don't worry about it too much.
I've just added a label (Atheism 101) to this series so those who come late to the party can see them all without trawling through the rest of my posts.
uberchap said: My post was mainly aimed at deterring Sadie Lou from engaging you in debate, just in case she got upset with you..
Sadie & I 'cross swords' on a regular basis here, on her Blog & on other Blogs too. I'm sure she's used to me by now. I know for a fact however, that she finds me frustratingly stubbon - she's told me so herself.
uberchap continued: but maybe that was unnecessary of me as I know that she's able to make her points well.
She does indeed. Which is why I enjoy debating things with her. We may disagree on just about everything but we both manage to keep the sometimes heated debates reasonably civil.
uberchap finished with: As for learning stuff, why don't you read the countless posts made by me and others in the past on the various subjects misrepresented by this video.
I didn't have my computer here for awhile as my darling hubby was taking it to work. I'm here now, though! I see there was a little conversation going on without me. Interesting.
uberchap said... Sadie Lou.
You are wasting your time arguing here. All that'll happen is you will be offended. I know you don't want your way but don't even expect any of your points to be understood.
You know what's weird? An elder at my church said almost the exact same thing this Sunday at church during one of his bible studies. He knows that I am open to debating with Atheists and I don't think he approves. You know what though, I don't want to give up yet. Yes, cyberkitten is frustrating. Yes, many of my other atheist blog-buddies are frustrating and I am sincerely saddened by it. I really don't get offended much because there is so much empathy. I honestly care for these people. They are good people. There are so many other things besides our spiritual natures that attract me to these people that I can't separate myself from them, yet. While I admire their quest to read more about their atheism and read articles and books about Christianity, it bothers me that they don't invest equal amounts of time to what I have to say. I do feel like they blow me off most of the time. I keep thinking that if I give up here and on my own blog, many of them will have zero Christian influence in their lives other than the brand of Christianity they are saturated with. I am more frustrated by the Evangelical Movement and the "Christian Right" than I am with the hardening of hearts. Why would anybody come to know Jesus through crap Christians have to offer for the most part? Look around us, uberchap. The Christianity that is for sale right now, is weak. cyberkitten has told me that he stops Christians before they even get started, most of the time and for some reason, he let's me engage him still. That's worth something, even if it doesn't seem like much. If I can do even the littlest thing to help people understand that not all Christians are puffed up and ignorant--not all Christians are judgmental and self righteous--then it's a worthy cause. Don't you think? Cyberkitten, because of the time lapse, is there any way you can let uberchap know I responded to his comments?
Sadie said: He knows that I am open to debating with Atheists and I don't think he approves.
He's probably frightened that we'll turn you to the 'Dark Side'. [cue asthmatic breathing]
Sadie said: Yes, cyberkitten is frustrating. Yes, many of my other atheist blog-buddies are frustrating and I am sincerely saddened by it. I really don't get offended much because there is so much empathy.
I'm interested why the frustration makes you sad... Is it because you believe that we've "turned our backs on God" but are otherwise good people?
Sadie said: I do feel like they blow me off most of the time.
That's never been my intention.
Sadie said: I keep thinking that if I give up here and on my own blog, many of them will have zero Christian influence in their lives other than the brand of Christianity they are saturated with.
Quite probably. I have a few Christian friends but I think we've talked out our differences religion-wise...
Sadie said: cyberkitten has told me that he stops Christians before they even get started, most of the time and for some reason, he let's me engage him still.
Because you don't preach at me & don't tend to answer questions with scripture as if it actually means something to me.
Sadie asked: Cyberkitten, because of the time lapse, is there any way you can let uberchap know I responded to his comments?
Sorry no. We'll just have to wait for him to show up.
He's probably frightened that we'll turn you to the 'Dark Side'. [cue asthmatic breathing]
I think he knows that's not going to happen. I'm interested why the frustration makes you sad... Is it because you believe that we've "turned our backs on God" but are otherwise good people?
I have just come to know you and my other atheist friends and it bothers me that you guys won't experience a life with God; both here on this earth and in the life beyond. I don't want you to perish.
Sadie said: I have just come to know you and my other atheist friends and it bothers me that you guys won't experience a life with God; both here on this earth and in the life beyond. I don't want you to perish.
That's nice of you to say that. However, I for one am glad to be free of a life with the experience of God. I like my life just the way it is... OK, maybe not *exactly* the way it is but certainly a God-free Zone. Also, I hate to break this to you but we're *all* going to 'perish' (presumably you mean not going to Heaven) even those who believe.
You may certainly believe that your postion is right but I beg to differ. You have absolutely nothing to be sad about.
Everything in then film has already been answered by me and others.
That's actually true cyberkitten. I remember as I was watching the video, I was thinking, "I have already explained the opposite of these stereotypes about a dozen times and that's why I asked you if you watched the video with your head nodding in agreement. It was frustrating for you to admit that you did. You have retained nothing as far as what I have tried to educate on. And that is slightly disturbing.
uberchap said: No; just the dull side or maybe the dumb side if mockery's what you're interested in peddling in your search for "truth".
Actually the comment was meant to be humour - but you've had issues with my little jokes before. Atheism is neither dull nor dumb but rather interesting in its implications and (I believe) much more rational than theism.
You do seem to have an issue with my Blog title. Is it because I'm not looking for the truth in the places you believe you've already found it? The reason I'm not seeking the truth in religion is because I believe my quest would be wasted.
uberchap said: You seem to be full of hidden shallows, cyberkitten.
[grin] It's been said before. I think I'm fairly deep actually.
uberchap said about the video: It is so dire that it does not deserve to be dignified by any comment.
..and so any debate ends there.
uberchap said: If you really believe this about the faithful then your atheism is truly groundless. But, if you can't see that then I'm not going to do your work for you.
My atheism is 'grounded' on the total lack of evidence in the existence of God - not merely in the silliness of religion.
uberchap said: You have shown by subsequent comments that you disagree but you haven't shown any understanding of the points in question. The discussion has never got deeper; it has just remained at the same superficial level.
Indeed. It is *very* clear that we do not understand each other.
uberchap said: Having not experienced God, as you state, how can you be glad ? You don't know what you've missed ! I thought Christians were the bigots as far as you were concerned !
In the same way that I'm glad I wasn't born into abject poverty or in a war zone. Over the years I have met many people who called themselves Christians. I knew from early on that I didn't want to be like them... Oh, and how is not wanting to be part of the 'God club' an act of bigotry?
Sadie said: You have retained nothing as far as what I have tried to educate on. And that is slightly disturbing.
That's probably a combination of the incomprehensibility of religion, trying not to learn *too* many silly things in my life added to my poor memory and advancing age.
I certainly did not nod 'sagely' as uberchap said. I did however have few issues with the narrators generalisations - and they were *general* comments. The narrator, as far as I can tell, is attempting to answer questions I have seen theists ask time and again. These questions are often at best naive and often insulting. From the video's I've posted so far in this series the narrator has answered them pretty well.
The narrator, as far as I can tell, is attempting to answer questions I have seen theists ask time and again. These questions are often at best naive and often insulting. From the video's I've posted so far in this series the narrator has answered them pretty well.
No, the narrator did a good job of indulging every stereotype of the faithful he possibly could. Not only that, he made wild assertations and assumptions into the mind of the faithful.
I would think that by talking to me and to people like uberchap, we would have done our jobs of counteracting those stereotypes and that's where I feel either I have failed or you weren't listening.
14 comments:
I guess I missed Part 2. Cyberkitten, I hope you don't watch these videos and nod your head in agreement the whole time. The misinformation, assumptions, and outright lies about faith and organized religion is really too much for me to simply tackle one at a time. Besides, I don't think the energy I spend on doing such a thing will be worth it.
The worst part of this video and the scariest thing about Atheism is that the narrator said to have faith in the human race and then later he says, "what if I told you there was no such thing as sin?"
Then he goes on to say that Christians just go about their lives (sinning) knowing they will be forgiven later.
How can you have faith in men and then disprove sin?
Why are men so horribly disgusting to each other? Take religion completely out of the equation and look at the many reasons men commit crimes against each other than have nothing to do with religion--like rape or kidnapping.
How can I have faith in men?
sadie said: I guess I missed Part 2.
It's at the bottom of the page if you want to check it out.
Sadie said: I hope you don't watch these videos and nod your head in agreement the whole time.
Pretty much, yes.
Sadie said: The worst part of this video and the scariest thing about Atheism is that the narrator said to have faith in the human race and then later he says, "what if I told you there was no such thing as sin?"
I have *some* 'faith' in the human race (though probably not as much as it sounds like the narrator has) and I definitely don't believe in 'sin' (which is a crime against God is it not?)
Sadie said: Then he goes on to say that Christians just go about their lives (sinning) knowing they will be forgiven later.
He might have been talking about Catholics here....
Sadie asked: How can you have faith in men and then disprove sin?
I don't think he 'disproved' sin, I think he just said that he didn't believe in it. I agree with him.
Sadie asked: Why are men so horribly disgusting to each other?
Good question. Probably lots or reasons. Partially its in our nature, partially its because we're brought up that way.
Sadie said: Take religion completely out of the equation and look at the many reasons men commit crimes against each other than have nothing to do with religion--like rape or kidnapping.
Indeed. Many things we do, both good and bad, have nothing to do with religion.
Sadie asked: How can I have faith in men?
I think that as a species we're pretty dispicable on *so* many levels. You just have to know a bit of history to see that. However, on an individual level the vast majority of people I've met in my lifetime have been OK or better than OK and I don't think I'm alone in that. Humans are capable of committing great wrongs but (knowing history again) we are also capable of greatness too.
As a skeptic my 'faith' in mankind is rather limited but they do keep surprising me. Maybe if we survive long enough we might eventually get 'our act together' and stop all the badness. Not going to happen in either of our lifetimes though...!
Maybe if we survive long enough we might eventually get 'our act together' and stop all the badness. Not going to happen in either of our lifetimes though...!
We've been here long enough to know there is nothing new under the sun. The crimes we commited against each other from the start are the same crimes we commit today and without abandon.
No, I don't have faith in man and it is God's common grace that keeps us from completely destroying ourselves. If he were to stop loving his creation--it wouldn't be long until we killed each other off.
Sadie said: No, I don't have faith in man and it is God's common grace that keeps us from completely destroying ourselves. If he were to stop loving his creation--it wouldn't be long until we killed each other off.
His grace doesn't seem to be working very well at the moment does it?
We're not going to be around forever and in many ways the world would be better off without us. Again its something that is unlikely in our lifetimes so I don't worry about it too much.
I've just added a label (Atheism 101) to this series so those who come late to the party can see them all without trawling through the rest of my posts.
Hi uberchap. Welcome back.
Would you like to be more specific about the lies presented as fact in this video? How else can I learn stuff?
uberchap said: My post was mainly aimed at deterring Sadie Lou from engaging you in debate, just in case she got upset with you..
Sadie & I 'cross swords' on a regular basis here, on her Blog & on other Blogs too. I'm sure she's used to me by now. I know for a fact however, that she finds me frustratingly stubbon - she's told me so herself.
uberchap continued: but maybe that was unnecessary of me as I know that she's able to make her points well.
She does indeed. Which is why I enjoy debating things with her. We may disagree on just about everything but we both manage to keep the sometimes heated debates reasonably civil.
uberchap finished with: As for learning stuff, why don't you read the countless posts made by me and others in the past on the various subjects misrepresented by this video.
I have and I do.
I didn't have my computer here for awhile as my darling hubby was taking it to work. I'm here now, though!
I see there was a little conversation going on without me. Interesting.
uberchap said...
Sadie Lou.
You are wasting your time arguing here. All that'll happen is you will be offended. I know you don't want your way but don't even expect any of your points to be understood.
You know what's weird? An elder at my church said almost the exact same thing this Sunday at church during one of his bible studies.
He knows that I am open to debating with Atheists and I don't think he approves.
You know what though, I don't want to give up yet. Yes, cyberkitten is frustrating. Yes, many of my other atheist blog-buddies are frustrating and I am sincerely saddened by it. I really don't get offended much because there is so much empathy.
I honestly care for these people. They are good people.
There are so many other things besides our spiritual natures that attract me to these people that I can't separate myself from them, yet. While I admire their quest to read more about their atheism and read articles and books about Christianity, it bothers me that they don't invest equal amounts of time to what I have to say.
I do feel like they blow me off most of the time.
I keep thinking that if I give up here and on my own blog, many of them will have zero Christian influence in their lives other than the brand of Christianity they are saturated with. I am more frustrated by the Evangelical Movement and the "Christian Right" than I am with the hardening of hearts. Why would anybody come to know Jesus through crap Christians have to offer for the most part? Look around us, uberchap. The Christianity that is for sale right now, is weak.
cyberkitten has told me that he stops Christians before they even get started, most of the time and for some reason, he let's me engage him still.
That's worth something, even if it doesn't seem like much.
If I can do even the littlest thing to help people understand that not all Christians are puffed up and ignorant--not all Christians are judgmental and self righteous--then it's a worthy cause. Don't you think?
Cyberkitten, because of the time lapse, is there any way you can let uberchap know I responded to his comments?
Sadie said: He knows that I am open to debating with Atheists and I don't think he approves.
He's probably frightened that we'll turn you to the 'Dark Side'. [cue asthmatic breathing]
Sadie said: Yes, cyberkitten is frustrating. Yes, many of my other atheist blog-buddies are frustrating and I am sincerely saddened by it. I really don't get offended much because there is so much empathy.
I'm interested why the frustration makes you sad... Is it because you believe that we've "turned our backs on God" but are otherwise good people?
Sadie said: I do feel like they blow me off most of the time.
That's never been my intention.
Sadie said: I keep thinking that if I give up here and on my own blog, many of them will have zero Christian influence in their lives other than the brand of Christianity they are saturated with.
Quite probably. I have a few Christian friends but I think we've talked out our differences religion-wise...
Sadie said: cyberkitten has told me that he stops Christians before they even get started, most of the time and for some reason, he let's me engage him still.
Because you don't preach at me & don't tend to answer questions with scripture as if it actually means something to me.
Sadie asked: Cyberkitten, because of the time lapse, is there any way you can let uberchap know I responded to his comments?
Sorry no. We'll just have to wait for him to show up.
He's probably frightened that we'll turn you to the 'Dark Side'. [cue asthmatic breathing]
I think he knows that's not going to happen. I'm interested why the frustration makes you sad... Is it because you believe that we've "turned our backs on God" but are otherwise good people?
I have just come to know you and my other atheist friends and it bothers me that you guys won't experience a life with God; both here on this earth and in the life beyond. I don't want you to perish.
Sadie said: I have just come to know you and my other atheist friends and it bothers me that you guys won't experience a life with God; both here on this earth and in the life beyond. I don't want you to perish.
That's nice of you to say that. However, I for one am glad to be free of a life with the experience of God. I like my life just the way it is... OK, maybe not *exactly* the way it is but certainly a God-free Zone. Also, I hate to break this to you but we're *all* going to 'perish' (presumably you mean not going to Heaven) even those who believe.
You may certainly believe that your postion is right but I beg to differ. You have absolutely nothing to be sad about.
Everything in then film has already been answered by me and others.
That's actually true cyberkitten. I remember as I was watching the video, I was thinking, "I have already explained the opposite of these stereotypes about a dozen times and that's why I asked you if you watched the video with your head nodding in agreement. It was frustrating for you to admit that you did. You have retained nothing as far as what I have tried to educate on. And that is slightly disturbing.
uberchap said: No; just the dull side or maybe the dumb side if mockery's what you're interested in peddling in your search for "truth".
Actually the comment was meant to be humour - but you've had issues with my little jokes before. Atheism is neither dull nor dumb but rather interesting in its implications and (I believe) much more rational than theism.
You do seem to have an issue with my Blog title. Is it because I'm not looking for the truth in the places you believe you've already found it? The reason I'm not seeking the truth in religion is because I believe my quest would be wasted.
uberchap said: You seem to be full of hidden shallows, cyberkitten.
[grin] It's been said before. I think I'm fairly deep actually.
uberchap said about the video: It is so dire that it does not deserve to be dignified by any comment.
..and so any debate ends there.
uberchap said: If you really believe this about the faithful then your atheism is truly groundless. But, if you can't see that then I'm not going to do your work for you.
My atheism is 'grounded' on the total lack of evidence in the existence of God - not merely in the silliness of religion.
uberchap said: You have shown by subsequent comments that you disagree but you haven't shown any understanding of the points in question. The discussion has never got deeper; it has just remained at the same superficial level.
Indeed. It is *very* clear that we do not understand each other.
uberchap said: Having not experienced God, as you state, how can you be glad ? You don't know what you've missed ! I thought Christians were the bigots as far as you were concerned !
In the same way that I'm glad I wasn't born into abject poverty or in a war zone. Over the years I have met many people who called themselves Christians. I knew from early on that I didn't want to be like them... Oh, and how is not wanting to be part of the 'God club' an act of bigotry?
Sadie said: You have retained nothing as far as what I have tried to educate on. And that is slightly disturbing.
That's probably a combination of the incomprehensibility of religion, trying not to learn *too* many silly things in my life added to my poor memory and advancing age.
I certainly did not nod 'sagely' as uberchap said. I did however have few issues with the narrators generalisations - and they were *general* comments. The narrator, as far as I can tell, is attempting to answer questions I have seen theists ask time and again. These questions are often at best naive and often insulting. From the video's I've posted so far in this series the narrator has answered them pretty well.
The narrator, as far as I can tell, is attempting to answer questions I have seen theists ask time and again. These questions are often at best naive and often insulting. From the video's I've posted so far in this series the narrator has answered them pretty well.
No, the narrator did a good job of indulging every stereotype of the faithful he possibly could. Not only that, he made wild assertations and assumptions into the mind of the faithful.
I would think that by talking to me and to people like uberchap, we would have done our jobs of counteracting those stereotypes and that's where I feel either I have failed or you weren't listening.
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