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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Saturday, February 11, 2006

Quote.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."

It's an oral history. It was passed down, word-of-mouth, father to son, from Adam to Seth, from Seth to Enos, from Enos to Cainan, for 40 generations, a growing, changing, story, it was handed down, word-of-mouth, father to son. Until Moses finally gets it down on lambskin. But lambskins wear out, and need to be recopied. Copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of an oral history passed down through 40 generations. From Hebrew it's translated into Arabic, from Arabic to Latin, from Latin to Greek, from Greek to Russian, from Russian to German, from German to an old form of English that you could not read. Through 400 years of evolution of the English language to the book we have today, which is: a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of an oral history passed down through 40 generations. You can't put a grocery list through that many translations, copies, and re-telling, and not expect to have some big changes in the dinner menu when the kids make it back from Kroger's. And yet people are killing each other over this written word. Here's a tip: If you're killing someone in the name of God -- you're missing the message.

Nick Annis, preface to "God is Good"

21 comments:

Sadie Lou said...

And yet people are killing each other over this written word. Here's a tip: If you're killing someone in the name of God -- you're missing the message.

Christians are killing each other or Christians are being killed by others?
*confused*

Sadie Lou said...

The Dead Sea Scrolls include a range of contemporary documents that serve as a window on a turbulent and critical period in the history of Judaism. In addition to the three groups identified by Josephus (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes), Judaism was further divided into numerous religious sects and political parties. With the destruction of the Temple and the commonwealth in 70 C.E., all that came to an end. Only the Judaism of the Pharisees--Rabbinic Judaism--survived. Reflected in Qumran literature is a Judaism in transition: moving from the religion of Israel as described in the Bible to the Judaism of the rabbis as expounded in the Mishnah (a third-century compilation of Jewish laws and customs which forms the basis of modern Jewish practice).

The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Many scholars believe that both the literature of Qumran and the early Christian teachings stem from a common stream within Judaism and do not reflect a direct link between the Qumran community and the early Christians.


I've asked you about the Dead Sea Scrolls before and you seemed to not be impressed by the fact that some of what was written on them exactly matches scripture in today's New Testament.
My point is that anything is possible when God's purpose and will is being carried out. Should that grocery list you mention be something of importance to the Lord--the kids would bring back exactly what mom had in mind...

CyberKitten said...

Sadie Lou said: I've asked you about the Dead Sea Scrolls before and you seemed to not be impressed by the fact that some of what was written on them exactly matches scripture in today's New Testament.

I don't know enough about them to argue the point with you. But didn't they also contain much which conflicts with the Bible - presumably why they where hidden.. so they wouldn't be destroyed?

Sadie lou also said: My point is that anything is possible when God's purpose and will is being carried out. Should that grocery list you mention be something of importance to the Lord--the kids would bring back exactly what mom had in mind...

So, are you saying that the Bible is exactly how it should be - despite all of the editing, miscopying and translations throughout the years?

Sadie lou also asked: Christians are killing each other or Christians are being killed by others?

Don't know. Both maybe?

Paste said...

Great post as I've come to expect!

Sadie lou says - My point is that anything is possible when God's purpose and will is being carried out. Should that grocery list you mention be something of importance to the Lord--the kids would bring back exactly what mom had in mind...

This blind faith that it'll all be OK if God's involved is scary, a complete suspension of rational thought and common sense.

Laura said...

Sadie Said: "Christians are killing each other or Christians are being killed by others? *confused*"

I find it interesting that you completely discount that this passage is from the Old Testament, and yet you attribute it only to Christians. Jews and Muslims share this common story (though surprisingly the Muslim story is much less derogatory toward women). I think the general point is that any religious tradition started as oral tradition, and the original ideas have been copied, passed down, translated and edited over time.

CyberKitten said...

dave used the phrase: a complete suspension of rational thought and common sense

Isn't that a pretty good definition of faith?

Baconeater said...

The more I have been reading about real history and comparing it to the bible, I'm pretty convinced that the Exodus was just one big story, and that Judaism really didn't happen until 650 BC.
Look what James Frey almost got away with in todays day and age. If I am going to remotely believe anything about the Exodus or Abraham, I want at least an ounce of physical proof (archaeological or historical writings) to go with it.
I'm almost convinced that if you want to start a major religion, you only need two people at the beginning: someone who invents the story and another person who believes the story.

Sadie Lou said...

about the Dead Sea Scrolls if you're interested. It's a fairly simple website with facts broken down into about 25 main points. Check it out.
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

**not going to answer any personal attacks about having faith in God anymore, I've wasted enough time with those and I write some Christian themed posts on my blog which are better served.
:)

CyberKitten said...

sadie lou mentioned: any personal attacks about having faith in God anymore

I wasn't aware that anyone was attacking you personally.... though I do think that we're having the same old semantic misunderstanding.

I check out that recommended website tomorrow....

Laura said...

Sadie: I hope you're not referring to me. I didn't mean that comment as derogatory. I was just pointing out how we all have trouble seeing things outside our own perspective sometimes. No offense meant.

CyberKitten said...

sadie lou advised: about the Dead Sea Scrolls if you're interested. It's a fairly simple website with facts broken down into about 25 main points. Check it out.
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html


Number 22 was rather interesting -

Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

I wonder why?

Sadie Lou said...

This blind faith that it'll all be OK if God's involved is scary, a complete suspension of rational thought and common sense.

I was talking about that comment from Dave.

Laura, you said...
think the general point is that any religious tradition started as oral tradition, and the original ideas have been copied, passed down, translated and edited over time.

God says, in the bible, that if anyone changes scripture either by leaving something out or adding to it--they will be heaping God's judgment on their heads.
I have FAITH that God has protected the canon of scripture so that furture Christians have everything they need. See, we believe that our God is big enough, strong enough and in control enough that if he wants the Bible a certain way--that's the way it will be.
and that's hard for people to understand.

CyberKitten said...

Sadie lou said: See, we believe that our God is big enough, strong enough and in control enough that if he wants the Bible a certain way--that's the way it will be.
and that's hard for people to understand.

It's certainly hard for me to understand.

Are you saying that the Bible has never changed? That it has always been exactly as it was when originally written? Or are you saying that any changes that have occured over time only do so through God's will?

Do you believe that the Bible it totally without error?

I think I remember you saying that you don't believe that the Bible is literally true - that there's revealed truth & allergory in there too...

greatwhitebear said...

you have Krogers in the UK?

CyberKitten said...

GWB said: you have Krogers in the UK?

Not as far as I know. I've certainly never heard of them.

Laura said...

That's definitely hard for me to understand, Sadie. To me the whole "if God will's it" argument seems like one big rationalization to prevent people from being accountable for world events. But cest la vie...

Sadie Lou said...

Are you saying that the Bible has never changed?
No.
That it has always been exactly as it was when originally written?
No.
Or are you saying that any changes that have occured over time only do so through God's will?

The latter. God can work with our corruption to bring about his purpose just as he can work through our good intentions.

do you believe that the Bible it totally without error?
God does not make errors--yeah, that's what I believe.

I think I remember you saying that you don't believe that the Bible is literally true - that there's revealed truth & allergory in there too...

Yes. What of it? Allergory, parables, symbolism, all of these are not "errors". God uses many ways of getting a point across--be it literal or not.

Laura--
I don't see how the Lord's will removes me from responsibility at all. I still make choices, big and small, everyday and I live with the consequences or the blessings. I don't ever throw my hands into the air and say, " Well, this is God's will so I had no part in it"
Have you ever known me to shift blame or not claim responsibilty for things?
(in a bloggish sort of knowledge?)
:)

CyberKitten said...

Sadie lou said: Allergory, parables, symbolism, all of these are not "errors". God uses many ways of getting a point across--be it literal or not.

Just clarifying your position. I'll get back to you on the errors bit @ a later date.

JR said...

My attitude is, if God is a supreme entity and all powerful, He/She/It does not need my help smiting enemies. So I've never quite understood "holy wars" or killing the infidel in God's name. I think it's awfully arrogant of the mere mortals to think God needs their help.

Sadie Lou said...

Excellent comment, V.V. I concur.

Karlo said...

This idea that it has to be the word of God based on "faith" would seem to be immediately dubious once there was more than a single existing version of the text. I couldn't agree more. Of course, one could also doubt "the original" (or if we are to follow Nietsche, doubt that there's such thing as "an original".)