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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Sunday, March 12, 2006

How old are Things?

How do we know how old things are? Sometimes telling something’s age is simple – it has a manufactured date stamped on it. Other things have certificates or other forms of documentation proving its age. Then there is historical evidence for the age of buildings such as the pyramids and so on. Dating pre-historic things is a bit more difficult and here we use our knowledge of geological processes and techniques such as Carbon dating. After that things get even more exotic. So we can be pretty confident that things are a certain age. Or can we?

What about the assertion (made by some Christian Fundamentalists) that the Earth and everything on it are no more than 6000 years old? This is obviously false right? After all we have hard evidence that the Earth is much older than that. But, the Young Earth advocates say, God can make things appear to be much older. This, of course, is very difficult to argue against – which is the entire point. How is it possible to tell the difference between two hypothetical objects: One that is actually a million years old and another that has every appearance of being that old but was created by God six thousand years ago? Theoretically there would be absolutely no difference between the two and it would be impossible to tell which one was the ‘real’ object. But this does not mean that the Fundamentalists have won this argument. Far from it. On one side of the argument we have faith that the world is indeed very young but appears old, on the other we have scientific knowledge that has been built on over hundreds of years. It is a true act of faith (actually quite a leap of faith) to insist that the Earth is only 6000 years old. But there are other problems with this idea too.

An apparently old Earth raises many questions. For instance, why is God trying to fool us as to the age of his creation – especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary? Also, why 6000 years? Yes, I know about Bishop Usher counting generations in the Bible. Is that the only ‘proof’ of this assertion or is there more? Of course the more you ask about this idea the deeper into the quagmire we get. If God could create a 6000 year old Earth that looks and feels 4.5 billion years old then why isn’t the Earth 600 years old? Sounds silly doesn’t it? After all we have an immense amount of historical records and artefacts dating back well before 600 years ago. But surely God could have easily manufactured this evidence, made it logical and consistent, ‘aged’ the monuments and so forth? But why would he fool us into such a false belief?

Lets take it another step forward into absurdity. What if God created the world 60 years ago. Hold on, you say, that’s impossible. I know people older than that. My parents and grandparents are still alive and they’re older than 60. But how do we know that? Could God have created people with their apparent ages complete with memories? Of course He could. How could we possibly know the difference? If God is perfect there would be no ‘clues’ to this recent creation, no mistakes or anomalies. We would have to accept that things are as old as they appear. OK, we’ll take it just one more step. What if God created the world as we see it 6 years ago? I think that just about everyone reading this is older than six right? I know some of you have children older than that, so it’s plainly impossible, right? Not so. God could have created you, complete with memories and scars and children and anything else he wished – and you would never be able to tell the difference. Is this absurd enough for you yet?

The point I think that I’ve successfully made is this. Either you can accept as an act of faith that the world is not as it appears to be despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary and with it the concept of a trickster God. Or you can accept that things are as they appear to be and as science tells us they are. This doesn’t mean that you have to reject God, it just means that God isn’t playing tricks on us.

15 comments:

JR said...

Wonderful argument. I'd never followed that 6,000 year old theory out to its ridiculous end. Sadly, there are some who prefer to think God is a trickster and I wouldn't doubt there are some who would be willing to say, it's possible the world is 6 years old and it's a test of their faith to believe anyway.

CyberKitten said...

Thanks. This has been brewing in my head [lovely image I know] for a while now. I knew that if I followed where the agrument led it would just get more and more absurd. If God does exist - and He's all that He's cracked up to be - then pretty much by definition He isn't a trickster God. Therefore it follows that the Earth actually IS 4.5 billion years old. I can't understand why people have a problem with that.

Foilwoman said...

Well, I've always wondered about the "Trickster God" POV or the "God Kills People Horribly For Unknown Reasons" POV. Do these people really want to be relying on a deity like that? If that is the being who made and "runs" our world, aren't we better off keeping our distance?

The fossil record, the ongoing evolution of the world (for better and worse) is much less frightening, even if things happen for no reason. Better no reason than an insane or cruel one.

Juggling Mother said...

you should send this one into Radar & see what the creationists make of it - if you're willing to hear their rebuttals;-)

CyberKitten said...

Mrs A said: you should send this one into Radar & see what the creationists make of it.

Radar...???

Juggling Mother said...

Radar is Simon's little friend who requested posts for a reasoned debate on Young earth creationism vs Darwin, evolution & pretty much every scientific idea around today:-)

I'm sure I sent you the info....

he's my current project - you've gotta have one you know, there's no point in preaching to the converted as it were:-)

Paste said...

Great post, as per Mrs A's request please post it on

http://www.smatthan.blogspot.com/

another creationist who is in the 'blind faith, I am right' mode.

CyberKitten said...

I'll check her out. See you there [grin]

Michael K. Althouse said...

You have put in a nutshell what philosophers have been arguing for ceturies. Is everything real or is it all illusion. Rene Descartes classic scenario of the "Evil Genius" depicts a world in which nothing is real. Others have argued that all we know is what our senses tell us, but how can we verify if that is real.

The fact is that we are acting on faith. The faith that everything is in fact real, that our senses are not lying to us and all that we know is what we know. The other option, which is equally possible, is that nothing is real. Nothing. Not yesterday, not 6000 years ago, not 4.5 billion years ago. It is all illusion.

For me, it is one or the other and which it is is really quite irrevelant. If everything is illusion, then it is an illusion I am stuck in, one from which there is no escape. If it is real, same result. I choose not to live in dellusion.

~Mike

Paste said...

Sounds like 'The Matrix' to me!

CyberKitten said...

dave said: Sounds like 'The Matrix' to me!

I think that the Demon put forward by Decartes as a possible explanation of things certainly must have influenced the writers of The Matrix.

The question is - How would we ever know the difference? Is it even possible to 'wake up' from the dream?

Juggling Mother said...

no, the question is, do we want to wake up? why?

CyberKitten said...

Mrs A asked: no, the question is, do we want to wake up? why?

I guess it depends on what we are waking up from & what would we be waking up to?

Maybe this 'reality' in a nightmare & we would wake up to something better...? On the other hand...

Also - isn't reality preferable to a dream existence?

Juggling Mother said...

But that's the biggy in the Matrix isn't it? Would you want to live in a post apocalyptic world, where you are hunted & killed on sight, where there are no mod-cons, just goo for food, and pollution blocking out the sun, or would you want to go back to the dream world, that was impossible to tell from reality, but where the rules made sense?

it's a toughie:-)

Of course, if I were the machines, i would have re-created mediaeval society, so that the chances of anyone finding out were minute & could be dealt with easily by claiming witchcraft:-)

CyberKitten said...

Mrs A said: Of course, if I were the machines, i would have re-created mediaeval society, so that the chances of anyone finding out were minute & could be dealt with easily by claiming witchcraft:-)

[snigger] Good idea. They did try 'heaven' - a perfect world - first but it failed. Not surprisingly..........