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- CyberKitten
- I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Has Science Found God?
by Victor J. Stenger
From Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 19, Number 1
A Universe Fine-Tuned for Life
In recent years, the notion that the laws of physics are "fine-tuned" for the existence of life has caught the fancy of believing scientists and theologians alike. Indeed, probably no idea has received more attention in the latest discussions on religion and science. The fine-tuning argument rests on a series of scientific facts called the "anthropic coincidences." Basically, they say that if the universe had appeared with slight variations in the values of its fundamental constants, that universe would not have produced the elements, such as carbon and oxygen, and other conditions necessary for life. The fine-tuning argument assumes only one form of life is possible. But many different forms of life might still be possible with different laws and constants of physics. The main requirement seems to be that stars live long enough to produce the elements needed for life and allow time for the complex, nonlinear systems we call life to evolve. I have made some calculations in which I randomly vary the values of the physical constants by many orders of magnitude and look at the universes that would exist under those circumstances. I find that almost all combinations lead to universes, albeit some strange ones, with stars that live a billion years or more. Life of some kind would be likely in most of these possible universes.
The God of the Equations
A second, related line of argument is found in the recent dialogues. The equations of mathematics and physics are claimed to provide evidence for a Platonic order to the universe that transcends the universe of our observations. Recent trends in Christian theology and its rapprochement with science have moved Christianity closer to a position where a deity is to be found in the order of nature as a creative entity transcending space, time, and matter responsible for that order. Indeed, the modern Western theological notion of God is probably closer to Plato's Form of the Good than the white-bearded Jehovah/Zeus on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or the beardless Jesus/Apollo on the wall. And here is where some scientists and theologians currently seem to find a common ground - in the idea that ultimate reality is not to be found in the quarks, atoms, rocks, trees, planets, and stars of experience and observation. Rather, reality exists in the mathematical perfection of the symbols and equations of physics. The deity then coexists with these equations in some realm or mathematical perfection beyond human observation. This God is knowable, not by his or her physical appearance before us but by its presence as that Platonic reality. We all exist in the "mind of God."
Past logical disputes over the existence of God were largely confined to philosophers and theologians. This type of purely logical discourse, in which little reference is made to observations, is largely disdained by scientists - believers and nonbelievers alike. Premise-Keeper scientists claim they are going beyond the traditional theological arguments, that they see direct evidence for intelligent design in their observations and equations. As Paul Davies has put it: "The very fact that the universe is creative, and that the laws have permitted complex structures to emerge and develop to the point of consciousness - in other words, that the universe has organized its own self-awareness - is for me powerful evidence that there is `something going on' behind it all. The impression of design is overwhelming." Note the use of "evidence" rather than "proof" in this quotation. Still, a Platonic God need not have anything to do with the God of the Bible, nor any other imagined deity, abstract or personal. And the equations need not actually represent a transcendent deity. True that Platonist physicists view quantum fields and space-time metric tensors as "more real" than quarks and electrons. Materialist physicists, by contrast, think that quarks and electrons are more real than metric tensors or fields of any kind, these simply being human inventions. But the majority from both camps do not view either of these possible realities as deities. They do not see that a "miracle" was necessary for the universe and life to exist.
Still Seeking the God of the Gaps
This illustrates why the claimed convergence of science and religion does not hold up under scrutiny. Look at history. Science has always explained observations in terms of natural (that is, nonsupernatural) phenomena. Religion has always proposed supernatural explanations to fill those gaps where science provided no natural explanations, or simply remained silent. Only one domain of existence has ever been occupied in either case - the domain of human observations. The shamans in ancient forests taught that "spirits" caused rocks to roll down a hill - until Newton said it was gravity. Priests taught that "God" created humans in his own image, until Darwin said evolution created us in the image of apes. And now we have this new breed of scientist-theologian arguing yet again that just because science cannot explain this, that, or the other thing, then we still have room for God. We cannot explain why the constants of nature have the curious values they have, so maybe God made them so. We cannot explain the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics," so maybe God invented mathematics. Maybe. But is this modern God of the gaps any more plausible than the God of the shamans and priests? Maybe one day science will fill in these gaps without the premise of God.
[I think that the Anthropic Principle is wrong headed. It looks at the Universe and sees structure, order & design and says: ‘Look how the Universe has been designed for us to live in’. What believers in the Principle fail to see is that the Universe was not designed for us, but that we are ‘designed’ for it. The Universe is about 15 Billion Years old whilst life on Earth began about 3 Billion Years ago. Over that time life adapted itself through Natural Selection to fit the Universe it found itself in. If the Universal Constants had been different either there would have been no life here or it would be of a rather different kind. Maybe in such a Universe the “Slime Creatures from planet Zerg” would be expressing amazement at how the Universe was clearly designed for them. Unfortunately they would be just as wrong as some humans are.]
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[I think that the Anthropic Principle is wrong headed. It looks at the Universe and sees structure, order & design and says: ‘Look how the Universe has been designed for us to live in’. What believers in the Principle fail to see is that the Universe was not designed for us, but that we are ‘designed’ for it. The Universe is about 15 Billion Years old whilst life on Earth began about 3 Billion Years ago. Over that time life adapted itself through Natural Selection to fit the Universe it found itself in. If the Universal Constants had been different either there would have been no life here or it would be of a rather different kind. Maybe in such a Universe the “Slime Creatures from planet Zerg” would be expressing amazement at how the Universe was clearly designed for them. Unfortunately they would be just as wrong as some humans are.]
Nope, that's not the observation that leads to the AP, it's not the way the physics works, and your assumptions about different constants and other life forms, are wrong.
island said: Nope, that's not the observation that leads to the AP, it's not the way the physics works, and your assumptions about different constants and other life forms, are wrong.
Welcome Island...
Would you like to expand on that?
Or maybe I should just visit your Blog... [grin].
Nevermind.....
Now I don't have anything to talk about... :(
... Science has always explained observations in terms of natural (that is, nonsupernatural) phenomena. Religion has always proposed supernatural explanations to fill those gaps where science provided no natural explanations, or simply remained silent ...
That's it in a nutshell.
As for the Anthropic Principle, it's not science. There is no way of proving it or disproving it. It's taking a shortcut to thinking. Just because you can't conceive of a universe that is different than our current one doesn't mean that it couldn't exist.
Indeed dbackdad. As the author of the article stated:
I have made some calculations in which I randomly vary the values of the physical constants by many orders of magnitude and look at the universes that would exist under those circumstances. I find that almost all combinations lead to universes, albeit some strange ones, with stars that live a billion years or more. Life of some kind would be likely in most of these possible universes.
The Universe isn't 'designed' for anything or anyone. We just happen to live here.... At least that's my appreciation of what's going on.
Well, I gave you a chance to avoid cluelessness, but...
1) The anthropic coincidences are balanced between diametrically opposing <-|-> runaway tendencies.
For all you would-be constant changers, that means that any sustained deviation results in a cumulative runaway effect that accelerates exponentially away from your wildest freaking dreams for what constitutes conditions that are conducive to life.
2) The observed universe is carbon-rich by a ratio of approximately 10:1, but carbon based molecules and chains also form more readily when the ratio is reversed, (as is the case on Earth!), 10:1 in favor of the next most plausible life-form that we have been able to imagine, (silicon based life), so there is absolutely no justification for speculation about other forms of life in context with the known physics.
Those are the facts, kids. Deal.
"Nevermind"... she says... as if she has the first clue. I have made some calculations...
HAHAHAHA!!!
Don't say that I didn't try.
As for the Anthropic Principle, it's not science. There is no way of proving it or disproving it.
Duh... eh... um... it's anthropic relevance that can be falsified... lol
I'm seriously thinking about putting this whole on my blog as an example of how not to do science.
island said: Those are the facts, kids. Deal.
and: I'm seriously thinking about putting this whole on my blog as an example of how not to do science.
You do seem very certain about things. Personally I'm not so certain. Probably because the Anthropic Principle (what I know about it anyway) doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
Are you saying that the Universe is 'designed' for our type of life or for us specifically? Could it not be a chance event? If it was 'designed' then who or what 'designed' it and why?
You do seem very certain about things.
CK, those are the hard known FACTS that lead physicists to the anthropic principle. There is no speculation about that. This is also NOT a creationism issue, until you let them make it one, because there is no justification for assuming that purposeful, goal-oriented structuring isn't perpetually inherent to the energy of the universe, which is exactly what Davies is saying.
There is no justification for the leap of faith to "intelligent design", since any good physical NEED for us to be here will suffice, so this is the default position unless someone provides direct proof to the contrary.
Necessity is the mother of "invention", period.
There is, therefore, absolutely no reason to hide from nor to auto-deny the implication that we might not be here by accident. Doing this means that you have been duped by creationists because you have no imagination. Doing this means that you BELIEVE that an admission of such constitutes evidence for "god". It means that you are the religious one.
I am into my fourth year exclusively studying the AP, and yeah, I have my own understanding, but that has nothing to do with the known facts that I have presented to you here.
And I'm sorry if my response seemed harsh, but I deal with willful ignorance from both sides of the "debate" on a continual basis.
Try my website, which is a little bit more layman friendly.
er... this might help:
www.anthropic-principle.org
Well, I gave you a chance to avoid cluelessness, but...
Those are the facts, kids. Deal.
Duh... eh... um... it's anthropic relevance that can be falsified... lol
I'm seriously thinking about putting this whole on my blog as an example of how not to do science.
Island, obviously your intent is not to have a discussion but rather to resort to ad hominem attacks and feel good about yourself. For your sake, I hope you've succeeded. We can post your exchange on our blogs as an example of how not to have a discussion. I've checked out your blog and you seem to resort to your pompousness regardless of who comments. Apparently there is no one in the world that could be as knowledgeable as you.
Dude, you ignored the fact that you insulted me first.
But you don't see that, do you?
Of cours not.
Exactly where did I insult you? Questioning the Anthropic Principle is not insulting you personally.
Nah, it was when you blew right past my input and ignored my attempt to keep you from making erroneous statements.
I also extended a reasoned hand, including an apology to CK as soon as I received indication that she wasn't simply dismissing my input ANY LONGER.
As I have done many times in the past, I'm very easy as soon as I get an honest indication.
FYI: The Anthropic Principle is a cosmological principle, so you can falsify it if you can show that the otherwise completely unexpected structure of the universe isn't contingent on the existence of carbon-based life as is indicated by the physics that drove PHYSICISTS to formalize the observtion.
Wow... Who'd have thought that *this* post could produce such heated comments....?
I don't think there is any need for anyone to call anyone else names... Is it possible to actually have a debate on this subject?
Whilst not exactly central to my life I do have at least a passing interest in it... So... Chill.
island said: And I'm sorry if my response seemed harsh, but I deal with willful ignorance from both sides of the "debate" on a continual basis.
I'm afraid that you do come across as being harsh & abrupt - though it's difficult to tell sometimes via text. I'm sure that you do indeed deal with all types of ignorance on a daily basis... but you might put less peoples backs up by not assuming that its 'wilful' ignorance rather than simple lack of knowledge.
You've been close to the subject for years - most other people haven't & will inevitably ask dumb questions and have their own opinion on the subject. Shooting people down in flames doesn't really do your position any justice.
Oh, and for the record... I'm a HIM.
Sorry guy. And I guess that I don't see uneducated opinions as worthy of espousal concerning this subject, because they have done great damage to what is potentially very important science.
You are no more guilty that many scientists who do the same thing, if that makes you feel any better?
If you read Vic Stenger and think that educates you, then you've been both duped and warped by a rabid extremist antifanatic who is trying to use this as his last claim to fame before he fades into the sunset.
And I agree, you shouldn't have insulted me to begin with... ;)
island said: And I agree, you shouldn't have insulted me to begin with...
[rotflmao]
Good one.
What exactly is a "rabid extremist antifanatic"....? and what is he rabidly extreme and anti-fanatic about exactly? What I've read of his stuff seems fairly sensible....
So that's your gig ... trolling the internet for anyone who has ever said something negative about the Anthropic Principle? Fascinating.
I'm ducking out of this one. He's all yours CK. lol. Enjoy.
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