It’s all part of The Plan….. Right?
I’ve been thinking lately about Gods Plan and, rather inevitably, I have a few questions about it. But first, for the sake of argument I’m going to assume that God exists and that He does indeed have a Plan – otherwise this is going to be a very short post!
Anyway….. The Plan. The first thing that comes to mind is just what exactly is covered by The Plan? Is everything that happens part of it? Is every falling sparrow part of the overall Plan or are some things outside of the Planning process? For example is the fact that I’m a vegetarian part of the Divine Plan? Or that I’m particularly fond of the colour Blue? Or are such things just too trivial to be part of Gods Plan for us all? If some things are part of the plan and some things are not then how can we tell the difference?
Are we indeed all part of Gods Plan? Are some people more involved with the Plan than others? Are some people not part of the Great Plan at all? If so, then how do we (or they) tell the difference? If you feel that you’re part of Gods Plan does that mean you are? Does that feeling of being involved come from God or from yourself? Are people who don’t believe in God part of Gods Plan? Is it then part of Gods Plan that I’m an Atheist? If so, then a person’s belief (or lack of) is beyond criticism by believers in The Plan and any kind of religious discrimination or violence is against Gods design – unless of course such conflict is part of The Plan. But how would we tell the difference?
As an Atheist am I in opposition to Gods Plan? Is such a thing even possible? Using our God given Free Will can we choose not to be part of The Plan? Would that make any difference? Is it possible to oppose The Plan in such a way that it could be delayed or even derailed? Can an individual or group of people upset Gods planning to that degree? If Gods Plan is inevitable no matter what we do then what has happened to Free Will? Is it just the choice between accepting God or rejecting Him? Is that the limit of our freedom? That’s not exactly what I would call Free Will, never mind the consequences of the ‘choice – exercise you ‘Free’ Will in a way that God doesn’t want you to and you burn in Hell forever. Use your ‘Free’ Will to do exactly as God tells you to and you get to go to Heaven. That’s an interesting interpretation of the words Free and Choice.
Of course we’re not exactly clear just what Gods Plan actually is. After all He moves in ‘Mysterious Ways’ and all that. But whatever The Plan is its going to be worth it, Right? I mean look at all the death and suffering in the world so far. Presumably, as it’s all part of Gods Plan, the deaths of countless millions of (largely) innocent people must be leading to something truly amazing if they are to be justified, Right? I mean if someone came forward to the United Nations with a Plan to create an Earthly utopia that required the painful deaths of 10 million children to achieve it we’d call Him a lunatic or a monster wouldn’t we? So what kind of result is worth all of the wars, disasters and atrocities we’ve witnessed during our recorded history? After all they where all part of Gods Plan, Right?
So many questions. Is it any wonder I’m an Atheist?
About Me
- CyberKitten
- I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.
14 comments:
I always feel I must preface these comments by saying my views on Christianity are not necessarily aligned with mainstream theology.
Much of this God's Plan nonsense is pop theology aimed at aliening the pains of American's with too much time on their hands.
I don't know how many times I've been told my daughter's cancer is part of God's Plan, or that "God is in control." I haven't actually yelled at anyone for spreading this silliness yet, but I think the next time someone tells me that I'll probably ask them why in the world they would think that.
As for your questions, I'd just like to address this one:
Is it just the choice between accepting God or rejecting Him? Is that the limit of our freedom? That’s not exactly what I would call Free Will, never mind the consequences of the ‘choice – exercise you ‘Free’ Will in a way that God doesn't want you to and you burn in Hell forever. Use your ‘Free’ Will to do exactly as God tells you to and you get to go to Heaven. That’s an interesting interpretation of the words Free and Choice.
We will not be judged by what we believe or choose. We will be judged by what we do. And the standard that we are judged by is not what God says, but rather what we ourselves, individually, understand to be right and wrong. So there will be as many different standards of judgment as there will be people to judge.
Thanks for that Scott... and good to see you back Blogging... [grin].
How did your computer game go? Finished building Civilisations? Or just taking a well earned break....?
The whole "plan" idea just makes me think God is obviously a evil bastard!
And a bad planner!
I conquered the world and am now afraid to start a new game for fear of exorbitant time consumption. I've actually moved on to home repairs to take up my non-valuable time.
I have commanded armies and conquered worlds.... I know *exactly* how you feel..... I particularly enjoyed blowing up an entire Galaxy in one game. Now *that* was fun...
TV used to be the great Time Killer - then they invented computer gaming..... [bg].
JM said: The whole "plan" idea just makes me think God is obviously a evil bastard!
Sadistic just doesn't cover it... does it? George Carlin said something along the lines of: This is the kind of work you'd expect from a temp who doesn't give a fuck... which sounds about right.
That's it!! God ... computer gaming ... we're all just part of a huge SIMS game by someone who isn't that good at the game. lol.
Believing and Choosing are not Doings? Is physical exertion the required criteria of a judgeable act? Are not Believing and Choosing are the foundations upon which our observable Actions are built? Though I can't see or claim to understand your underlying motives, are they not the engine that drives your deeds and therefore fair game for a Judge that CAN see and understand them?
Well if you read what CK wrote you'd see that he brought up the question of whether we are simply judged by if we choose to accept or reject God. That is the only choice or belief that I was referring to.
Really? By whom? Will we be our own judges? Or perhaps some other Being will judge us according to the law we have set for ourselves? Would that even qualify as judgment? We are all Bushes and Cheneys?...laws unto ourselves?
We'll all be judged by God, of course. But the standard is not the same for every person. If it were, God would not be just at all because there is no reason a child or a mentally handicapped adult, who does not understand right from wrong, should be judged the same as me. So it will be that we will be judged and when we are accused not a person will stand there and say, "OH NOS! I DIDN'T KNOW I WASN'T SUPPOSE TO DO THAT!" because EVERY competent human has a conscience, and chooses to violate or adhere to it on a moment by moment basis. That's a perfect system of judgment, anything less is unjust and unfair.
"Oh! But who are you to call God unfair!" you'll say. The answer is that I am a man, created in his image, with logic, reason, and a strong sense of justice similar to God's.
If your daughter's illness is not within God's sovereignty then it must be beyond it and therefore beyond His control. If her illness IS within God's control then what is happening is happening for a reason and that reason is God's reason.
Time and chance, my friend. Simply put, random shit happens. Anyway, if God really is micromanaging every aspect of the World as you'd suggest, he's writing a terrible script as it's already been mentioned by atheists here who seem to have a better sense of justice than you do with your Calvinist theological musings.
"if God really is micromanaging every aspect of the World as you'd suggest, he's writing a terrible script "
But if he just set the place up & left us on our own, he's still a bit of a git isn't he? You'd think he'd look in every now & then & give us a nudge on the right path (even if you think of Jesus as a nudge, 2000 years is an awfully long tim to wait for another), and I'd have set up some contingency plans for when we completely screw it up!
Also, considering how few of humanity believe in any single religion (let alone sect within that religion), his plan is obviously failing miserably.
And, what's the point of praying if he doesn't give a shit anyway? If he's going to sit up in heaven & not get involved, why should we bother?
I've always felt that the detached God is just pointless - it's the desperate last attempt to keep your faith despite all evidence to the contary.
The involved god is, of course, the evil sadistic bastard mentioned above.
I don't think either are suitable judges for my actions - I have a better sense of justice than either of them!
r10b asked: What do you mean by God-given Free Will? I understand what the phrase generally means, but specifically what does it mean to you? Specifically how much freedom is required to meet your definition of a free will? What do you think you are free to do not, God or no God? Are you free to do anything you want? Are you free to do what you don't want to do but do anyway just to prove that you're free to do it? I'm not looking for answers to these questions specifically, just the official cyberkitten definition of Free Will. This should be interesting.
Thanks for being so interested in my opinion r10b. I’m actually quite flattered. Of course I need to start out that I don’t believe the our Free Will originates with God. As an atheist that’s a given. I have, however, heard the phrase many times especially in the context of choosing whether or not to obey God. We have the ‘Free’ Will to disobey Him but BOY watch out for the consequences! Not exactly ‘Free’ in my book.
Anyway, I think that our Free Will is a by-product of being conscious self-aware beings. Self-awareness is a by-product of the complexity of our brains which is a product of Evolution. Ultimately our Free Will evolved with us. Free Will stands in opposition to Determinism. It means that although our actions may be influenced by other things – such as our genetic heritage, our Culture or personal experience that in the final analysis we have the choice to act in ways contrary to all of them. Obviously there are many things in our lives that are beyond choice. We cannot simply choose to have the ability to fly or live forever. But we can choose how we live our lives and what we do with it. We can choose to be good or not. We can choose many things though some choices will inevitably be more difficult than others. However, neither the difficulty of the choice nor the consequences flowing from it in any way remove the fact that choice is present at almost every point in our lives. Exercising Free Will is difficult and, in my experience, most people want an easy life. We are creatures of habit but we are so by choice.
To answer at least one of your points I would have to say that yes, ultimately we are free to do just about anything we want to do (except those beyond our ability to choose) but as with everything in life there are consequences - both intended and unintended – from every action we choose to make or not make.
So r10b - What is *your* opinion of the idea of Free Will?
Oh... and there was this:
r10b said: Of course there may be no God and this thread is a just another way to kill time till we die.
Indeed... Indeed. I'm having fun... Are you?
r10b those are not nudges - those are good people. They come in all shapes, sizes and faiths. A god-given nudge to the world, would actually have to affect & be noticed by the world, not by a few individuals.
r10b said: But I don’t follow your train of thought when you allow chance and random shit to happen under God’s nose of which He is powerless to stop or just not concerned. Some might say that God “permits” random events to happen, but in the context of this discussion a permitted event would by definition be within God’s control.
Does that mean that you believe that everything that happens (or doesn't happen) is Gods responsibility? Both the Good & the Bad?
r10b said: Good deeds by good people (and even good deeds by bad people) are the result of the influence of God in the world.
and: God has chosen to work in the world primarily through the actions of the "Church Invisible" and even occasionally through acts of love by those who make no claim to follow any God.
then posed the question: Would it be more reasonable if God were to act "Olympian" all the time?
Actually no. But what *would* be a reasonable asumption is that Good people do good things and that Bad people do bad things - without any God being needed to be added to the equation.
Finally r10b said: the word "responsibility" would indicate that God is the source of all actions either good or bad.
You mean that there are other sources of action independent of God? Things that God has no control or influence over? Is such a thing possible? If God 'knows' our Will but cannot control or influence it - in what sense does He 'know' it?
R10b - I assume you do NOt give your children total freedon to do anything they want & take the consequences though? I am guessing that you constantly guide, advise, and direct their choices. And if those consequences were particularly dire, you'd be right there by their side sorting it out?
I am assuming this guidance was not a one off ambiguous message left to them when they were first born that you expect them to follow during their whole lives, but rather is ongoing communication, often unambiguous and specific to the situation?
If they disobey you at any time, I am guessing you help them pick up the pieces, assist them to get their lives back on track, and encourage them to return to the right path with love & understanding. I assume you do not condem themn immediately to everlasting ostrication?
"And given the fact that you are still alive and not experiencing everlasting ostrication, neither does God.
"
I'm regularly told that I will spend eternal torment in Hell when I die. Apparently so will all my children & their children unto the (I can't remember 7th? 10th?) generation - which I fel is terribly unfair on my very pious & religious great great grand children;-)
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