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Monday, September 10, 2007

Atheist Ethics (Part 3)

By Julian Baggini

I have already mentioned Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling as a study of faith, but it is also a deep study in the inescapability of personal choice. It is this aspect of the work that is most responsible for Kierkegaard's reputation as the 'father of existentialism'. Existentialist thinkers are a pretty disparate bunch, comprising Christians, atheists, communists, fascists, free spirits, and pretty much everything in between. What unites them is a belief in the inescapability and centrality of individual choice and freedom in human life. Their message is that you are always making choices, even when you try and pretend that you have not chosen, and that these choices carry with them responsibility. For instance, I might try and avoid making a choice by asking someone else to choose for me. But this does not mean I haven't chosen, it just means my choice has moved from being directly about my final action to being about the means of making the selection. I cannot avoid my responsibility for what I go on to do: having chosen to follow the advice of someone else, I am as responsible for so doing as if I had chosen without that advice. After all, I could always choose to accept or reject the choice made for me.

Kierkegaard's retelling of the story of Abraham illustrates this point. Abraham is commanded by God to sacrifice his only son, Isaac. On the divine command model of morality - that moral law comes directly from God - it seems that Abraham has no choice: he has to obey. But it would not be a great display of Abraham's faith and goodness if he just went ahead and killed his son without any thought at all. There are at least two choices he needs to make. The first is a kind of epistemological choice: he has to decide whether the command he has received is authentic. How can anyone know that what they seem to have been told by God is really an instruction from God and not one from an inner voice or an evil demon? The problem is that no evidence or logic can settle this question conclusively. At the end of the day Abraham has to decide whether he personally is convinced or not. That is his choice.

The second choice is a moral one: does he follow the command? In a wonderful Woody Allen short story, Abraham thinks the answer to this is obvious: To question the Lord's word is one of the worst things a person can do.' However, when he goes ahead and takes his son to sacrifice, God is outraged that Abraham took his joke suggestion seriously. Abraham protests that at least his willingness to sacrifice his son shows he loves God. God replies that all it really proves is 'that some men will follow any order no matter how asinine as long as it comes from a resonant, well-modulated voice'.

The Allen story is a comic retelling of Kierkegaard's philosophical retelling of the Bible story, and both make many of the same points. The most striking idea is that Abraham cannot evade his moral responsibility by simply following orders. We should be alert to this since the terrible human propensity to do awful things just as long as they are commanded by someone in authority was particularly evident in the 20th century. Abraham's choice to obey the order is not just a choice to accept or reject God's authority. It is a moral choice to decide whether what he is being asked to do is right or wrong. After all, surely it would not be right to do what God commanded (assuming you were satisfied that God really had commanded it) no matter what it was. If God asked you to lower an innocent person into acid inch by inch, killing them slowly in terrible pain, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't. Religious believers are sure that God would never ask such a thing (although the Old Testament God does ask for some pretty bloodthirsty deeds to be carried out). But the point is not that God might ask people to do such a thing, it is that the hypothetical example shows that following or rejecting a command given to you by another, even God, is a matter of personal choice which carries moral responsibility.

The atheist and the believer are therefore in the same boat. Neither can avoid choosing which moral values to follow and taking responsibility for them. The atheist has the advantage, however, of being much more aware of this fact. It is easy for the religious believer to think that they can avoid choice just by listening to the advice of their holy men (it is usually men) and sacred texts. But since adopting this attitude can lead to suicide bombing, bigotry, and other moral wrongs, it should be obvious that it does not absolve one of moral responsibility. So although the idea of individuals making moral choices for themselves may sound unpalatable to those used to thinking about morality deriving from a single authority, none of us can avoid making such choices.

[As Neo said in the Matrix Trilogy – It’s about choice. Without choice their can be no morality. Machines cannot be moral because they cannot choose their actions. Non-sentient animals cannot act in a moral or immoral way because they are not self aware enough to make moral choices. Take away choice and you take away responsibility, you take away accountability and you take away morality. But simply handing over your responsibility to another agency does not take away the responsibility for your actions. You still make choices even when you have decided to follow the choices of another. We are moral beings because we can choose to be so.]

23 comments:

wstachour said...

A very interesting discussion. I think the talk of gods and sprites and demons and faeries serves to muddy the ethical waters, since they are, after all, only extensions of our own desires and imaginations. Abraham would not have to decide about the authenticity of the instruction he's been given if we didn't all pretend it was possible for gods to send messages. File this under The Evil of Religion, #72,164b.

(This does not, of course, invalidate anything you've said about the necessity of making choices and standing or falling by those choices.)

I've just been steered here by Vancouver Voyeur, and it appears there's lots for me to look at!

Cheers.

CyberKitten said...

wunelle said: I think the talk of gods and sprites and demons and faeries serves to muddy the ethical waters, since they are, after all, only extensions of our own desires and imaginations.

Very true.

wunelle said: Abraham would not have to decide about the authenticity of the instruction he's been given if we didn't all pretend it was possible for gods to send messages.

True again. But at least God talked to Abraham in a 'well modulated voice' rather than through an image of Christ burnt into a McDonalds bun.... [grin].

wunelle said: I've just been steered here by Vancouver Voyeur, and it appears there's lots for me to look at!

Thanks. I hope you come back and stick around for a while. There's usually something new here most days and we do get interesting debates going from time to time.

I've popped over to your Blog and also liked what I saw - expect to see my comments there soon.

Laughing Boy said...

Interesting. I'll have to dust off my copy of Fear and Trembling and refresh my memory, then see if I agree with how Baggini has invoked it. Nonetheless, he has yet to provide an atheistic grounding for morality as far as I can tell. The point of the theist's charge is that, without God (not without the Bible, but without God) there is no basis to determine what is right and what is wrong and why. Why are we talking about responsibility for moral actions before we have the basic definition of morality? Is this in part 4? Why doesn't he settle the basic question up front, then go into the details? I'm starting to think that he hopes, after much distracting prose, we all forget what the question was!


Hello, wunelle.

Abraham would not have to decide about the authenticity of the instruction he's been given if we didn't all pretend it was possible for gods to send messages.

God can't send messages? He can do all things...except communicate?

In Abraham's situation He had no other source of revelation with which to judge this message. He had to trust "the voice". We are in very different situation today. Those who think God speaks audibly to them today, and that what He says is an addition, a subtraction, or a contradiction to His existant revelation, are light years away from orthodox Christian doctrine and possibly very dangerous. Lock them up first and ask questions later.

Skywolf said...

Those who think God speaks audibly to them today, and that what He says is an addition, a subtraction, or a contradiction to His existant revelation, are light years away from orthodox Christian doctrine and possibly very dangerous.

Why? So God's not capable of updating his message? How do we know Abraham himself wasn't very dangerous? How do we know he didn't suffer paranoid schizophrenia, but because he was revered by the Jews at the time, his experiences later become 'orthodox Christian doctrine'? I'm not arguing for one second the fact that people claiming to directly hear God speaking to them and then performing very questionable acts as a result are anything less than dangerous... but I'm not sure why Abraham and others from millennia past are mysteriously removed from this.

What if some guy today claimed that God told him to sacrifice his own child, and so he took that child somewhere, prepared the sacrifice, and was about to perform the deed before the same voice decided he didn't have to do it after all and therefore gave him permission to stop before the act was committed? Such an event would be no different from what happened with Abraham and Isaac, yet these days the guy would be (quite rightly) locked up, and his children removed from his care for their own safety. Would anyone honestly argue that he should be respected for his actions, as Abraham was? I doubt it very much. And I fail to see a difference simply because Abraham's voices were heard thousands of years ago and our hypothetical man's voices were heard in this day and age.

CyberKitten said...

laughing boy said: Nonetheless, he has yet to provide an atheistic grounding for morality as far as I can tell.

Presumably he is calling into question the theistic interpretation of morality before he introduces the atheistic interpretation.

laughing boy said: The point of the theist's charge is that, without God (not without the Bible, but without God) there is no basis to determine what is right and what is wrong and why.

What.... because no one other than God has the *authority* to judge between Right & Wrong?

laughing boy said: Why are we talking about responsibility for moral actions before we have the basic definition of morality? Is this in part 4?

I don't know. I haven't read Part 4 yet. Exciting isn't it.....? Who knows what will come next....

wstachour said...

Hi, Laughing Boy and all.

I'm stepping into the middle of a conversation with which I'm not quite up to speed--evaluating the meaning of someone else's writings.

My comment about gods sending messages is not to imply that people who believe in gods are unsure whether their particular god is able to communicate. Rather, I'm talking about the foundation: there cannot be godly communication if there are no gods, and their existence is without evidentiary support again and again for thousands of gods--otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Talking about the nature of the communication is a non-starter without that first keystone. The religious solution, on that matter, is that you must simply have faith. To me, this is tantamount to a flag of defeat.

Most people agree that everyone worshipping a different god from theirs is wrong (Allah or Poseidon or Thor or Vishnu or Buddha or whatever); which means that--unless we concede that we cannot learn anything concrete about our world from religion--most of us ARE wrong. Yet almost invariably our religion is a function of where we were born--which, it goes without saying, has no bearing on the correctness of a proposition. All believers think they are being "communicated with"... except that we know most of them are wrong.

I'm just suggesting that even a wee bit of the effort we exert finding the holes in scientific theories be exercised on our faiths--and we'd have no faiths to worry about.

Thanks for giving me space to blather!

Laughing Boy said...

cyberkitten said...What.... because no one other than God has the *authority* to judge between Right & Wrong?

Who do you propose?

Laughing Boy said...

wunelle said......and their existence is without evidentiary support again and again for thousands of gods--otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that if there were evidence for God we would not be having this discussion because we'd all believe? Are you saying that whenever there is good evidence for some assertion, all people, then, necessarily believe the assertion (or even the evidence)? We all know that's not the case.

I'm just suggesting that even a wee bit of the effort we exert finding the holes in scientific theories be exercised on our faiths--and we'd have no faiths to worry about.

Ahh, the aroma of condescension. I and many others exert more than "wee bits of effort" looking for weaknesses in our faith. Do you think such men as Augustine, Descartes, Newton, Dostoyevsky, etc. were incurious "faith-heads"? I've read more atheist philosophy than most atheists. I don't hide in my prayer closet in fear that someone's going to burst my fragile faith bubble.

We can that this up at another time. This post is about the atheist's ground for morality, and hopefully Baggini will share with us what that is before too much longer.

Laughing Boy said...

Sorry. We can *take* this up...

wstachour said...

Ahh, the aroma of condescension. I and many others exert more than "wee bits of effort" looking for weaknesses in our faith.

Sorry. It's easy to let one's convictions run away with one--which, presumably, is what our good-faith (sorry!) discussions seek to avoid.

CyberKitten said...

wunelle said: I'm talking about the foundation: there cannot be godly communication if there are no gods, and their existence is without evidentiary support again and again for thousands of gods--otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

True. Is there any more evidence for the Christian God - or that He communicated with mere mortals - than there is evidence that Thor, Hathor or any other of the thousands of Gods that were thought to exist do. How do you actually *prove* the God is talking to you?

wunelle said: Most people agree that everyone worshipping a different god from theirs is wrong (Allah or Poseidon or Thor or Vishnu or Buddha or whatever); which means that--unless we concede that we cannot learn anything concrete about our world from religion--most of us ARE wrong.

Indeed. They can't all be right... but they can all be wrong. How can anyone tell which religion is the *true* religion - if all religions equally *believe* that they are the truely faithful? How is it possible to diferentiate between their competing claims?

wunelle said: Yet almost invariably our religion is a function of where we were born--which, it goes without saying, has no bearing on the correctness of a proposition.

True again. Our religious afiliations are normally the result of an accident of birth - nothing more.

wunelle said: I'm just suggesting that even a wee bit of the effort we exert finding the holes in scientific theories be exercised on our faiths--and we'd have no faiths to worry about.

True again. You've got an impressive batting average so far [grin]. Most religious belief when examined from *outside* that faith seems to be quite frankly ridiculous - not that anyone who is *inside* that faith will agree with you! When people do examine their faith they normally do it within the tradition and within certain limits. Those who go beyond this normally lose their faiths - at least in my experience.

wunelle said: Thanks for giving me space to blather!

Pleasure. Feel free to blather here at any time.

Regarding my comment on Gods authority to judge right & wrong laughing boy said: Who do you propose?

I don't propose anyone. We don't need anyone in higher authority to judge right and wrong for us. We are more than capable to making those kind of judgements ourselves.

laughing boy said: I and many others exert more than "wee bits of effort" looking for weaknesses in our faith.

That's a good thing. Have you found many?

laughing boy said: I've read more atheist philosophy than most atheists. I don't hide in my prayer closet in fear that someone's going to burst my fragile faith bubble.

If your faith was fragile I'm guessing that you wouldn't spend so much time debating with 'hard-line' atheists. Is it having any effect on your faith? I know you've said on several ocassions that debates here have given you food for thought - which is the whole idea afterall.

laughing boy said: This post is about the atheist's ground for morality, and hopefully Baggini will share with us what that is before too much longer.

I'm sure he will - eventually...

wstachour said...

As for the atheistic grounding for morality:

We are social creatures. We live in societies, collectives characterized by specialization of labor and collective action toward group goals.

This is not unique to humanity--dogs are pack animals, almost all ape / monkey / gorilla species are collective to a degree, ants are a supreme example, many others. And virtually all species specialize in the labor of child-rearing, with females doing some things and males doing others.

What distinguishes us is that we are able to contemplate these things in the abstract, function of our larger brains.

Behavior which we deem to be in a moral sphere is simply behavior which has an impact on our collective goals. Moral behavior is pro-social behavior. To that end, there are big obvious things which are, literally, anti-social: murder, mostly, because no society can flourish with rampant killing going on, but the harming of innocents, the wanton causing of pain (and even these things can be justified when the goals deem them necessary--in the book of Joshua, whole villages are wiped out).

But beyond those big items, what is moral is mostly what we DEEM to be moral. Marital infidelity is bad when your social structure leans on the nuclear family as the primary role for (the essential) raising of children; but a culture might determine that sex could be indiscriminate (as with chimpanzees) and the children would be raised collectively. Infidelity is immoral because it destroys the paternal lineage, which traces back to property rights. As it happens, we seem to have a clear genetic propensity for the nuclear family, but there are vestiges of the polygamy found in some gorillas in some human societies. They no doubt believe they're following a moral imperative.

Organized religion usually involves the erection of a power structure around these social forces, and provides a means of appending political goals onto our inherent sense of pro-social and anti-social.

Fully half of the Ten Commandments are simple, pro-social rules which predate the religion by thousands of years--murder, adultery, theft, lying. No functioning social structure is going to flourish without everyone playing by these simple rules. The other half are trying to put a moral imperative to THIS religion.

In a discussion the other night, a fella was trying to get me to acknowledge that there was "evil in the world," as though that would prove that it had been put there, like a substance. I said that we see pain and tyranny everywhere in nature, and that we have the ability to do anti-social things in each of us.

I do not myself see a hole in this subject which needs more filling than what we can provide scientifically.

Laughing Boy said...

wunelle said...Behavior which we deem to be...moral...is simply behavior which [benefits] our collective goals. Moral behavior is pro-social behavior.

The ultimate collective goal of a society is to strengthen and perpetuate it's own genetic stock and cultural influence. Any effort we take that makes it more likely that weak, sickly, mentally deficient, or otherwise ill-suited individuals could reproduce is counter to that goal, therefore anti-social, therefore immoral.

...no society can flourish with rampant killing going on.

But after the killing stops, the society of the remaining victorious faction deservedly flourishes. Throw a dart at a wall map. Wherever it sticks is a place where lesser societies have been wiped out by greater ones. America's native indians are a good example. (We did build a very nice museum to remember them by on the National Mall.) Killing might be unpleasant for a time, but we must keep the goal in mind; our genetic and cultural posterity. It might help to think of it not as killing, but as chemotherapy.

wstachour said...

You're right that killing is an indivisible part of the animal world. I use it as an example of something pretty much universally thought of as immoral--in normal, functioning societies.

But indeed we are clannish and competitive, and the tendency to triumph over others is there too. Protect and nurture your own, and ward off threats, even pre-emptively.

That seems a good starting point, a foundation for understanding the roots of morality. When we are no longer pursuing the bottom rung or two of Maslow's heirarchy, we are able to concentrate on happiness and the avoidance of pain, which figure into our moral equations.

It's a good discussion--lots to think about!

CyberKitten said...

laughing boy said: The ultimate collective goal of a society is to strengthen and perpetuate it's own genetic stock and cultural influence.

Firstly I don't believe that societies/states/countries *have* ultimate collective goals or collective goals or even goals. The actions of societies are made up by the millions of decisions made on a daily basis rather than any defined goals - defined by who I wonder....

I would like to know how exactly a society "strengthens and perpetuates it's own genetic stock" since we are all basically from the *same* stock. There has been so much genetic mixing in the West at least that we are all mongrels. There *is* no specific genetic stock to improve or protect.

I might give you the point about cultural influence though. I don't think that it's a societies 'goal' as such to strengthen its cultural impact in the world but governments certainly take it into account.

laughing boy said: Any effort we take that makes it more likely that weak, sickly, mentally deficient, or otherwise ill-suited individuals could reproduce is counter to that goal, therefore anti-social, therefore immoral.

This is, of course Eugenic nonesense as I'm sure you appreciate. Helping the weak and needy is what we humans do. It's part of what makes us human and we have been doing so throughout all of recorded history. Since we are the most dominant lifeform on the planet (arguably) I don't think it has done much damage to our 'stock'.

laughing boy said: Killing might be unpleasant for a time, but we must keep the goal in mind; our genetic and cultural posterity. It might help to think of it not as killing, but as chemotherapy.

I can only assume that you're being (very) sarcastic at this point.

Laughing Boy said...

If morality is defined as pro-social then we have to define pro-social. Many Western people these days would define pro-social as killing all Arabs. Many Muslims define pro-social as killing all infidels. Dawkins would define pro-social as removing children from homes of fundamentalist parents (of religious not the anti-religious variety).

On the other hand, if humans are only hosts for our genes, then its every host for themselves.

wstachour said...

Many Western people these days would define pro-social as killing all Arabs. Many Muslims define pro-social as killing all infidels.


Indeed. And often these people are following a religious morality. Children are taught from the earliest age to hate the "right" people, and this hatred is almost impossible to extinguish. This is why, in part, Dawkins would make it a moral issue that these hatreds and divisions not be taught until a person is able to process the information.

In any case, religions in practice do not preempt evil deeds, any more than atheists are inherently moral. There is no connection between a person's fealty to societal mythology and their adherence to pro-social morality.

On the other hand, if humans are only hosts for our genes, then it's every host for themselves.

Well, only if the genes have not concocted means for collective action; but (it appears) they have--social structures and kin selection. So I think it's not so much every host for themselves, it's whatever gets the most copies of the genes made.

CyberKitten said...

laughing boy said: On the other hand, if humans are only hosts for our genes, then its every host for themselves.

Actually individuals are not selected for. The unit of selection is the gene. So it's more like every gene for itself - except that they don't know this because their bits of DNA.

wunelle said: So I think it's not so much every host for themselves, it's whatever gets the most copies of the genes made.

That's right. Whatever gets most genes into the pool wins.

Laughing Boy said...

And often these people are following a religious morality.

Certainly not a Christian one. Christianity rightly calls those other religions false, but it does not advocate killing those who follow them.

That's right. Whatever gets most genes into the pool wins.

And this is the basis of morality?

I still haven't gotten an answer about the equatiing of morality with pro-social behavior. Take my earlier comments (2 comments back) and, using morality = pro-social, rebut my argument.

CyberKitten said...

After I said: That's right. Whatever gets most genes into the pool wins.

laughing boy said: And *this* is the basis of morality?

Erm... No. Of course not! It's how evolution works. The whole 'point' is for a gene to increase its numbers in the gene pool. It has very little to do with the basis of morality...

You *do* seem to have some serious hang-ups regarding evolution.... What's that about. It's all pretty straight forward I think. Do you think that evolution in someway undermines morality?

wstachour said...

But I think it IS the basis for morality.

The undermost principle is for the genes to propagate. Our bodies themselves are built as elaborate gene-propagation strategies. Everything should be an extrapolation of the imperative to make more genes, with anything that hampers this goal getting weeded out over time. Kin selection, our tendency to form clans and societies, our fear / hatred of "other"-ness, these are all things which have aided survival of the genes in the long pull. They have been selected by virtue of their role in making more gene copies than the genes which do not dictate these characteristics.

Our genes are virtually indistinguishable from those in fruit flies and daffodils and influenza bacteria. These life forms are all different strategies for maximizing gene reproduction from branchings billions of years ago, with each variant maximizing its fitness for its niche.

To my mind, this is all much more believable than the proposition that we're GIVEN morals by a "spirit." THAT explanation only works because "pleasing the spirit" is necessarily inscrutable; no one is allowed to speculate why the spirit wants things a certain way.

CyberKitten said...

wunelle said: But I think it IS the basis for morality.

I knew that there would be something we disagreed on eventually!

Our gene may influence our morality - though by how much I'm not sure - but I don't think that genetics can explain the diversity of moral thought and action nor can it explain how morality changes over time. Our genes may provide some sort of foundation to part of our ethical makeup but I doubt very much if they can be used to explain the difference between Ancient Greek morality, Ancient Aztec morality, 15th century Chinese morality & 21st Century American morality.

There is much more going on here than response to the urging of our genes and the need to procreate.

wunelle said: Our genes are virtually indistinguishable from those in fruit flies and daffodils and influenza bacteria.

Does this mean that bacteria have morals too? Or fruit flies or mice?

wunelle said: To my mind, this is all much more believable than the proposition that we're GIVEN morals by a "spirit."

Now there I agree with you. But I don't think that a genetic explanation of morality is sufficient by itself to explain it.

wstachour said...

This has all been an excellent discussion. If it's a disagreement, then it's one that makes me happy and gives me stuff to think about during the day! I'm grateful for the civilized forum on such an interesting and fertile topic.

I'm very far from an expert here (I fly an airplane for a living--what do I know?); but I think we're talking about two different things. I think there is what we might call genetic morality, which is what I'm speaking of, and then there is social morality, which is the rules and imperatives placed upon us by convention and those in power.

Societies are hierarchical and patriarchal, and it is natural that social leaders will try and dictate their wishes to their followers. I think much of what differentiates the moral spheres you mention (and I know nothing of those other moral codes) falls under the heading of arbitrary invented doctrine. So long as these rules do not interfere with the genes' propagation, they will not be selected out.

In our own time we have numerous examples: opposition to homosexuality and recreational drug use, humane societies for stray animals, public services for the handicapped--many, many things. These things have only a tenuous connection to the propagation of genes, but they are artifacts of the same large brains which feel love and form societies. Big brains, and their artifacts, are an evolutionary strategy; a different survival tactic from that attempted by the fruit flies' genes.

These lower life forms do not have morals--they are not conscious, in the sense we have of the word; but they're still following the broad behavioral programming of their genes.

I don't pretend for a moment that I have anything like concrete answers here. In some cases, these things are known, but I lack the knowledge and comprehension; in other cases, we simply don't know enough yet.

I'm fine with that. I think there is enough evidence that morality is, broadly, a survival strategy. The exact mechanism is yet to be sussed out. In any case, there is no competing theory with any support.