Thinking About: Intervention
I believe that help should be offered to those who need it and given to those who request it. I don’t believe, however, that we should intervene in people’s lives if they neither need nor request that intervention. People should be allowed (and expected) to be masters of their own destiny as much as they are able.
The same applies to countries. No matter what system of government they are under and no matter what internal policies they use we should not intervene in their destinies unless we are asked to do so. This is one of the major reasons why I opposed and still oppose the Iraq war. Iraq was patently no threat to us – immediate or otherwise – and little threat to its neighbours (despite the war with Iran or the invasion of Kuwait) and its internal politics, no matter how objectionable, were none of our concern. Of course I found the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein repugnant but that repulsion is not, and should not, be enough to warrant any kind of direct intervention – and especially not military intervention – in that countries destiny. It is for the people of Iraq (or Tibet or elsewhere) to decide their own fate and it is not for the West to decide what governments are legitimate and what governments must be toppled.
The debacle that is Iraq should be a salutary lesson in what not to do in international politics. Even if the situation eventually calms down enough to be called some kind of success (whatever that means) we have to ask ourselves if it will be worth the price in lives, suffering and not least in monetary terms, because if Iraq is anything to go by it will take millennia and more money than is rationally conceivable to save the world from itself.
The idea that the misguided intervention in Iraq was for humanitarian reasons is both laughable and offensive. If we are there for those reasons then why aren’t we also in Darfur or Zimbabwe? Was the humanitarian need in Iraq more pressing than elsewhere or was it that Iraq had huge oil supplies that the West (in particular America) wanted to secure for the future? Of course the issue of intervention is in the news again with the situation in Burma. The military junta there is preventing much needed aid reaching its people because of a paranoid fear of western influence. There has even been talk of forcing aid into the country without the co-operation of the junta – basically helping them whether they want it or not. This is of course understandable when we see people dying who could otherwise have been saved. It is however wrong to do so. We could topple the Burmese regime fairly easily no doubt but should we be in the business of going to war with every nation which does not behave in a civilised (in other words Western) manner? I think that the answer is clearly no. Countries should be allowed (and expected) to look after themselves unless they ask for help – and their peoples should be given the responsibility to topple their own governments when they become too oppressive. It is not and should not be the responsibility of Western powers to impose Western values on the rest of the world. This can only lead to disaster and endless war. We cannot and should not be in the business of reshaping the world in our image regardless of our humanitarian sensibilities.
9 comments:
I agree with you 100% on this. But I can't help playing just a bit of devil's advocate.
What is the proper policy when the will of a country's people is being subverted by a government? Or by an illegitimate junta? We used that to (thinly) justify invading Iraq; but at least part of the issue is that the claim never really held much water. Hussein was indeed a nasty individual, but he hardly created the morass in which the Middle East wallows.
But what of Darfur or Burma? When people are suffering and have no voice in their governance, could an international intervention ever be justified?
(I have to say that a HUGE part of what makes our invasion of Iraq such a debacle is that we could find almost no one who agreed with our motivations. This should be the reddest of flags that we were in the wrong. We even went so far as to ridicule those--the French particularly--who opposed us as being turn-coats or cowards or appeasers! This will go down as one of America's most shameful chapters, I think.)
I think I might have to side with wunelle on this one. There are many cases where a government will not ask for help for its citizens, and they are not able to ask for it. Or some may ask for help and others may ask everyone to stay away (as when one group is persecuting the other). Regardless of a formal request there are situations that deserve outside help.
Even though there are many examples of such intervention not going well, I think that there are cases where outsiders should be intervening and providing help when necessary, even if it is not requested. I agree that it is pretty hard to draw the line between what we should be doing and what we should leave alone to work out on its own, but that difficulty doesn't change the imperative to help.
When there is some agreement among several nations that intervention is warranted it seems that the issue is not whether we should intervene, but how to do it successfully. Without the help of the local government (or possibly with its active resistance) I think the odds of success are low, and so in practice it may rarely be a good idea to actually intervene. However, I do think it is something that should be considered in some situations.
Well said by all. The big questions of when intervention is called for and whether those involved are able to ask for help can't be decided by one country. The unilateral nature of this administration has stunted our foreign policy goals in every other part of the world.
I hate the provincial nature of our world. I'm a firm believer in a powerful United Nations. There is going to be a point in our future where people will laugh at how short-sighted and petty individual countries are in this day and age.
I can't help but feel that there is a touch of manifest destiny in some of these aggressive 'interventions'
I agree with what the others have said, sometimes intervention is desirable and necessary where there is a pressing humanitarian need (such as to prevent genocide) and some kind of international consensus can be reached.
The Burma question is an interesting one, but is one where I think 'intervention' should not be done through military means but by political and economic ones. The people there should be given the opportunity to really fight back against the junta - it's not really clear to me that they're waiting for outsiders to come and do it for them.
wunelle said: I agree with you 100% on this. But I can't help playing just a bit of devil's advocate.
...and there I was thinking I was being controversal!
wunelle said: What is the proper policy when the will of a country's people is being subverted by a government? Or by an illegitimate junta?
That's a purely internal matter & none of our business.
wunelle said: When people are suffering and have no voice in their governance, could an international intervention ever be justified?
Not when it needs the resorting to military force no. I don't think its reasonable to bomb somewhere so we can look after the survivors.
jeffy said: Regardless of a formal request there are situations that deserve outside help.
Sure, the *deserve* the help... but @ gunpoint if necessary? Do we have to destroy somewhere in order to save it? An uninvited military intervention is usually called an attack or an invasion and will probably result in a lot of extra people ending up dead. I don't regard that as a good thing.
jeffy said: When there is some agreement among several nations that intervention is warranted it seems that the issue is not whether we should intervene, but how to do it successfully.
I don't see it as a numbers game. It doesn't really matter if one country desides to intervene unilaterally or if 10 countries agree to do so. Its still the same thing. We really can't go around attacking soverign nations in order to same the people from their governments - where would that lead?
dbackdad said: There is going to be a point in our future where people will laugh at how short-sighted and petty individual countries are in this day and age.
I think that future generations will be quite shock at how selfish we are.
AM said: sometimes intervention is desirable and necessary where there is a pressing humanitarian need (such as to prevent genocide) and some kind of international consensus can be reached.
Intervention might be both desirable and necessary but might still not be practical (or even moral) to undertake. Unfortunately we can't save everyone & shouldn't be in the business of even trying to do so.
So at what point should one speak up and actually do something?
What is an acceptable victim count in your opinion?
yingerman said: So at what point should one speak up and actually do something?
We should speak up straight away - by offering our assistance and by being prepared to make good on our offer. I'm not saying that we should just leave people to die - I'm saying that you can't force help on countries that don't want it.
yingerman said: What is an acceptable victim count in your opinion?
There are no 'acceptable losses', it doesn't work like that. The point I'm trying to get across is that you can't attack, depose or threaten to depose a government because it won't let the international community come to its aid in time of peril. If a country doesn't want any help we should still offer it - and continue to offer it - but we shouldn't use force to get it to the people who need it. We can't start bombing places in order the drop food aid shortly after. That's just crazy, patronising and probably imperialistic too.
Again, I think your argument very sound and I cannot mount much of an effective rebuttal.
Still, there's a question in there about the merits and sanctity of national sovereignty, and about how far our concern for others legitimately extends. I am a little bit uneasy about a government's ability to squelch its citizens being one of the big gatekeepers toward the receipt of assistance. Under this thinking it appears to be entirely at the will of the military government of Myanmar whether these people receive help (which they surely must want when facing death without it) or not.
And yet I agree that it can't really become any of our business until those people choose it to be so (unsolicited intervention in our own internal matters by a concerned third party would seem like an invasion to us).
wunelle said: Still, there's a question in there about the merits and sanctity of national sovereignty, and about how far our concern for others legitimately extends.
How far need our concerns go before national sovereignty is no longer an issue? Probably when our own security is threatened or we witness acts of genocide....?
wunelle said: unsolicited intervention in our own internal matters by a concerned third party would seem like an invasion to us.
*Exactlly*. Can you imagine if China landed troops in the US to help with the aftermath of Katrina without the approval of the US Government? OK, maybe New Orleans whould actually have been back to normal by now but it would still have been an act of war.
Or is it a case that we only intervene in the affairs of countries that can't fight back?
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