Thinking About: Fate
I am an advocate of Free Will. Not that I can prove we have Free Will, to do that I would need to stand ‘outside’ of Time (in a sense) to see that my actions are indeed Free. Such a thing is impossible as there is no ‘outside’ in which to stand. However, as far as I can tell I am Free to make choices and I certainly feel Free – though this is hardly conclusive evidence of my freedom.
From the above you would think that I would dismiss the idea of Fate out of hand. However, things are not that straightforward. Just as I cannot prove that I have Free Will I cannot disprove that my actions (to a greater or lesser degree) are in any way fated. I am as yet not completely convinced about Causality. Effects certainly seem to follow from causes but it seems to me that such an obvious conclusion isn’t as obvious as it first seems. Just because B follows A in time does not necessarily imply that A causes B. Also, to say that effect X is caused by its predecessor P and so on back through time would mean that every action occurring everywhere in the Universe right now can be traced back to the Big Bang. Which means what exactly? It what way does that help us determine if an action is fated or not? If I hold a pencil above my desk and drop it, is that act fated or not? If I catch it on its downward journey did I act freely or not? How can I possibly tell?
At the same time I recognise that there is much in my life that is beyond my power and that these things impinge on my freedom of action. My physical being as an embodied human living in a certain time and place constrains the range of my possible actions. Other people likewise help to determine any course of action I undertake either by aiding or resisting me. Whatever way you look at it no one is totally free. But we can still make choices inside the boundaries of our freedom and it is those choices that make us free. But I still wonder about Fate.
Last year I studied the Stoic idea of Fate for an essay I was writing. I chose that particular subject because they seemed to hold two ideas that I considered contradictory. The believed both in Fate and Free Will. Their belief, in a nutshell, was that everything in the Universe is part of Fate (indeed they used Fate, Nature, the Universe and God to mean pretty much the same thing) including us. Fate acts upon us by producing the times we live through and the bodies – including our minds – that we live in. The thing that makes us different from the rest of life is that not only does fate act upon us but that we also have the potential to begin and end causal chains. In other words we can choose to stop something affecting us (thereby breaking a chain of causality) or originate action (thereby starting a chain of causality). The reason we could do this was frankly mystical but it’s an interesting idea nevertheless. The Stoics managed, as far as I was concerned, to ‘square the circle’ and reconcile Fate and Free Will in the same Universe. I was honestly impressed even if it took my several weeks of reading and hard thinking to get my head around the idea.
Do I then believe in Fate? The jury is still out on that one. Sometimes I see too many coincidences not to feel that something very odd is going on. I’m OK with coincidences from time to time, as such things are inevitable, but sometimes the odds against a string of them happening seem, at least to me, too great for chance to be responsible. Maybe I just don’t understand the Maths behind Large Numbers or maybe it’s Fate. I can’t help but wonder sometimes.
About Me
- CyberKitten
- I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.
12 comments:
"Just because B follows A in time does not necessarily imply that A causes B" -- This seems so basic, yet I'm amazed on a daily basis by people that forget this ... usually politicians.
On fate, I don't personally believe in it. But I do see the logic of a "situational fate". Meaning: Our environment and the age in which we live has presented us with a certain set of possible outcomes that wouldn't necessarily be there at a different time.
But, even if fate were true, it's counterproductive and depressing to live one's live according to it. If everything is pre-ordained, what's the point? You have to live your life as though you believe you have to power to decide one's own fate.
Regardless, a very interesting discussion.
Being a Christian, I naturally have opinions on both Free Will and Fate.
"Sometimes I see too many coincidences not to feel that something very odd is going on"
I totally agree and that's what just confirms my Faith in a God that orchestrates appointments for our lives.
From very small situations to very large situations, I see God's hand in much my life and the lives of those around me and it gives me hope. For people who do not believe there is a God, I wonder what they make of those life altering "coincidences"?
According to how the Earth works for an Atheist or an Agnostic person, isn't everything supposed to be random? I mean, even the origins of life and the creation of this plant were based on random circumstances--nothing should appear deliberate or coincidental.
~Sadie
dbackdad said: Our environment and the age in which we live has presented us with a certain set of possible outcomes that wouldn't necessarily be there at a different time.
Very true.
dbackdad said: If everything is pre-ordained, what's the point?
How would it be possible to tell? That's a *very* interesting question I think. No matter what I do (or don't do) it could either be because I have free will *or* that's its predestined. How would you tell the difference? I certainly don't feel overly compelled to do many things against my will and I certainly don't feel like a puppet being manipulated by something beyond my control.
dbackdad said: You have to live your life as though you believe you have to power to decide one's own fate.
Indeed. The trick I find is to know the limits of your freedom - by pressing up against the boundaries... and pushing.
Sadie said: From very small situations to very large situations, I see God's hand in much my life and the lives of those around me and it gives me hope.
...and I see no such thing. Weird, huh?
Sadie said: According to how the Earth works for an Atheist or an Agnostic person, isn't everything supposed to be random?
Absolutely not. [laughs] It's a common misunderstanding. Actually the opposite of planned isn't random - it's unplanned. If everything was random the universe and everything in it wouldn't exist! Indeed it *couldn't* exist. Imagine a universe where the bonds that bound atoms together acted randomly.... Imagine a world where chemistry acted in random ways.... I'm not even sure if you could call it chaos - it'd be too random and unformed to call it anything.
Sadie said: I mean, even the origins of life and the creation of this planet were based on random circumstances--nothing should appear deliberate or coincidental.
The origin of life may have been the result of random collisions of molecules somewhere in a shallow sea. I have no issue with this. However, the behaviour of the chemicals involved is far from random. Atoms bond together to form molecules in very particular ways - if they didn't molecules probably wouldn't exist for very long - if at all.
I also have no issue with coincidence. If you have a large enough number of things going on them coincidences are inevitable. 'Unfortunately' for us, we are 'desgined' by evolutionary processes to see patterns in our envirnment. This pattern recognition 'sees' false positives more often than it sees false negatives (which are potentially fatal). So we often see patterns where none exists. Hence a chain of coincidences, which may in fact not be such a chain, can be seen as 'the hand of God'.
I like to use an example on the possibility of fate existing when I speak to my students about WWI. I tell them the story of ArchDuke Franz Ferdinand. The assasin who was sent to kill him was late for his public speech. All bummed out, the assasin decided to go to a local coffee shop to figure out when the next opportunity would be for him to get close enough to Ferdinand in public to kill him. So the assasin goes to the coffee shop and while sitting there contemplating his options, Ferdinand's caravan of vehicles comes down the street. There's some sort of traffic accident or blockade, which causes Ferdinand's vehicle to stop in front of the coffee shop. The assasin can't believe his luck. He runs outside and shoots Ferdinand, killing him. So was Ferdinand fated to die on that day, one way or another? This also leads me into the discussion of whether great men make history, or history makes great men. I personally believe I have the free will to make choices, but also believe there are other factors at work in this world which sometimes supercede all my efforts to exert my free will.
V V said: I tell them the story of ArchDuke Franz Ferdinand.
Heck of a coincidence wasn't it!
V V said: This also leads me into the discussion of whether great men make history, or history makes great men.
Both I think.
V V said: I personally believe I have the free will to make choices, but also believe there are other factors at work in this world which sometimes supercede all my efforts to exert my free will.
Definitely. We are free in our historical and cultural context. There are things that we are free to do now that would've been (literally) unthinkable even 50-100 years ago.
"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -- Rush -- Freewill
Mike: Great song.... *Great* band....
After reading your post I couldn't resist listening to that song several times.
Oh no - another Rush fan!? ;-) I'm surrounded by them here, M and her entire band. They've been to see them a couple times on tour in recent years. Also, did you see the episode of Chuck about the video game with the Rush music? M went nuts over it. She had to call her Rush buddies to tune in. *giggle*
I've always appreciated Rush, and own several of their albums, but none of their newer stuff. It just hasn't done much for me, which is how I feel about a lot of the newer prog rock. I don't know if it's from years of listening to fusion jazz musicians who are even more technically advanced than the prog rockers or what. Who knows?
I was introduced to Rush @ University back in the TwenCen. I like pretty much everything they've done, particularly 'Red Barchetta'.
Red Barchetta is probably my favorite Rush song. It's the one that I could not hear for months or years and then find myself singing "My uncle has a country place, that no one knows about. He says it used to be a farm, before the motor laws!"
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