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I have a burning need to know stuff and I love asking awkward questions.

Saturday, June 10, 2023

Thinking About: Not Flying, But Falling with Style. 

I’ve been reading a few books recently on the theme of apocalypse and one thought in particular struck me. When the Western Roman Empire fell in 476CE would the average Roman citizen, living away from the capital, have known or suspected that such a thing had happened? Although Historians like to put definitive dates on things to separate them off, it’s actually quite difficult to pinpoint the start and end of things. To use a more modern example when did WW2 start and finish? The dates we use are from the declaration of war between the British Empire (making it global) and Germany on Sept 3rd 1939 and the end as the capitulation of Japan in 1945. But it could be argued that the war started much earlier in China or Spain. It could also be argued that the war continued LONG after the armistice in 1945 because of the continued fighting in China and elsewhere.  

But beyond the academic interest and debate about beginnings and ends here’s a more interesting question to ponder. If we are experiencing the fall of ‘western civilisation’ (whatever THAT means!) would we even know it? Much like the Roman citizen, could we point to something or a string of somethings and say: THAT’s when it fell. The problem, naturally, is that the fall of an Empire or Civilisation isn’t an event, it’s a process. Unless we get hit by a GIANT rock falling from the sky – which, incidentally, made us what we are today – or destroy ourselves in an act of nuclear mass stupidity, any collapse is going to take time, somewhere between decades and generations and we’re not really ‘designed’ to notice something that happens that slowly. Even our children or grandchildren might not be able to tell. They’ll see things as being different, with some improvements and some things worse or non-existent but will they think that their civilisation is in decline or that it had fallen sometime in their own lifetimes or during an earlier generation? Will they have the historical perspective to make any firm conclusion or pronouncement?  

The so-called ‘Decline of the West’ (however you define ‘West’ in this context) has been talked about and, all too often, shouted from the rooftops for at least the last 100 years and, most probably, long before that. But does that mean it's true? Have we at some point ‘fallen’ from a previous Golden Age? Some people point to Rome or Greece as exemplars but the more you know about those civilisations the more questionable that high pedestal becomes. But what else have we got to point to? Every age, every Empire, every civilisation has questionable ‘achievements’, questionable ideas, questionable morality. How can any age be compared with another and said to be ‘better’ or ‘worse’? That begs the question: from what perspective? Ours? Living in glass houses as we do, can we dare start throwing stones? We can’t stand ‘outside’ human culture and human history to judge things ‘objectively’ as some would maintain – there is simply no place to stand to make those judgements. A fall or decline must surely be measured against something higher, something greater for the idea to make sense. So, when someone talks of fall or decline, we must ask ourselves what they are measuring it against and is that measurement a valid one.    

4 comments:

Marian H said...

Regarding "golden age" and "decline of the West" theories, I tend to agree with your take very strongly. There are times in history that can be considered more technically advanced than others, more artistic than others, or times when ideas arose that influenced future generations. Those were important eras of innovation, certainly. But ascribing a *moral* superiority them...? I think it runs the risk of cherry picking what we like about that era and underplaying the rest.

For example, some people like to refer to the postwar period as a golden age in US history. But with much of it built on the spoils of war, can we really call it something to aspire to again? The subsequent rise of consumerism also calls into question the net effect of such prosperity and world dominance. We could call it a "golden age" from a purely pragmatic perspective, but putting it on any loftier pedestal is a mistake, IMHO.

In the words of Ecclesiastes (usually attributed to Solomon) - "Do not say, “Why were the former days better than these?” For you do not inquire wisely concerning this."

CyberKitten said...

I think for a VERY long time now, it's been much better to live in the Present rather than the Past. I can think of a few time periods I wouldn't mind visiting (as long as I'd had ALL of my shots!) but I wouldn't want to LIVE there!! Although I think we might be coming to the end of the age were things inevitably improve as the years roll by. Our kids might be the first generation for many years that are actually worse off in a lot of ways.

I can certainly see why the 50's in the USA are looked on fondly - just the fact that you could have a decent family life on a single income is a massive plus but I'm sure there were downsides too depending on your personal circumstances.

Stephen said...

I think industrialism has destroyed human civilization across the board, but more effectively in the west (and wholly, in America) given its emphasis on individualism. I realize that may sound absurd because we've advanced technically -- we've built on knowlege, we've done things that the ancients would regard as miraculous and even magical. We have gone to other worlds, bla bla bla. But we've destroyed our connections to nature, to one another, and to tradition which is the priceless heritage that has allowed humanity to transcend time for hundreds of thousands of years. Now songs and stories die, replaced by commercial jingles, and we bath not in the warmth of fire and human company, but in the cold blue of electronic screens.

CyberKitten said...

I don't think that Industrialism is the problem. On balance I think its caused way more good than bad (even taking into account pollution & resource depletion). Mass production has enabled more people to have more things than Kings in the past could only dream of. Building anything like that with craftspeople and artisans would've been impossible. Even Capitalism has its good points if well-regulated.

I think the main issue is two fold: Consumerism, whereby people are actively encouraged to buy things they don't need and don't want with money they don't have - and replace those things LONG before they wear out and Commodification, where everything has a price and anything that cannot be easily seen in money terms is considered worthless at best. It isn't long before we know the price of everything and the actual value of very little. Oh, and Commodification naturally leads to Transactionalism where everything is an implicant business deal - which eliminates trust.